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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 3:53:27 GMT
I realize this should go into the history forum.... but general discussion board gets so many more threads/posts, I just had to. We all know of Musashi and Kojiro and famous swordsmen from Japan... I believe Musashi ranks as having one the most sword duels (to the death) of any man in history. I am wondering who would be the European candidates for "greatest swordsman ever"? I'm not thinking along the lines of Achilles.... someone more recent, with varifiable one-on-one victories to his name. The reason for this question comes from a long-standing debate I have had with a friend. He has trained extensively in JSA and seems to think that the likes of Musashi and Kojiro are unparalleled in the West. I'm not asking a lame "who would kick who's butt" question.... (the answer of course is obvious ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ..... fully armoured Knight would be nearly invincible to someone armed with a katana-even a yari would have a hard time with full 15th century plate)... I'm just wondering whether Europe had swordsmen of that calibre (surely they must have!) and if so, what were their names and stories? Thanks alot people! I'm looking forward to a great discussion!
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 28, 2008 3:56:56 GMT
Many of the great masters of old (Fiore, ...uh...that other guy...and let's not forget ol'....what's his name...) were widely acknowledged as great swordsman, and several had quite a few duels under their belts, too. I forget the numbers, but perhaps Rammstein, Adam, or one of our lovely Eurofreaks (in the nicest way ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ) can tell you more.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 5:22:15 GMT
Yoda. of course.
(though, he might well be eastern. damn lucas' facination with ninajas)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 14:58:06 GMT
Silver might be considered a prolific swordsman, considering that there are people still teaching his concepts and writing books about them, then again I may be biased because I like Silver and study his school of swordsmanship.
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Post by rammstein on Aug 28, 2008 15:27:55 GMT
Roland. No other.
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Post by alvin on Aug 28, 2008 16:39:17 GMT
... I believe Musashi ranks as having one the most sword duels (to the death) of any man in history. I am wondering who would be the European candidates for "greatest swordsman ever"? I'm not thinking along the lines of Achilles.... someone more recent, with varifiable one-on-one victories to his name. I'm not convinced that the totality of Musashi's story has been verified, other than through his writings and others quoting his writings. I realize that he has many fans, and that any statement that contradicts some of the cherished beliefs held by many JSA adherents tends to start flame-wars. That is not my intent when I made my opening statement. There are many historical persons whose lives are shrouded in myth. And, along those lines, my nomination for most prolific Western swordsman/duelist would have to be that Scottish rogue Donald McBane. He, like Musashi, supposedly fought many duels, was an author, and lived a very colorful life. A little bit - www.theroyalscots.co.uk/histmcbane.htmlwww.woodenswords.com/WMA/reviews_galicswordsmanship.htm
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 18:46:16 GMT
Well, we don't know much about him, but here's my defense of Liechtenauer.
Musashi fought 60 duels, he wrote a book, he developed his own Ryu.
How well known was his ryu? Well, it never won nationwide acclaim. It's all but defunct now. It's tiny.
Liechtenauer - we don't know how many duels he fought. We know he traveled around studying for awhile and then started teaching. Here's the kicker - He was SO awesome, that people were studying his style and claiming lineage from him for 300 Years!
Now, there's two things I want to mention in the above, one is a conclusion i've come to, another is a possible theory behind Liechtenauer's popularity.
1st has to do with musashi. I think he was more of just a unique prodigy who didn't necessarily have the best methods or skills, but for whatever reason he just was a better duelist. Whether biological or psychological I don't know - but really, if his style was all that you'd think it would've caught on a little bit more. Japanese are all about being the best - other famed swordsman were recruited and paid to teach their styles with the official endorsement of Lords and such. Musashi, as far as I know, wasn't.
The other has to do with McDonalds(the fast food franchise). Man, that stuff is EVERYWHERE. You think if life ends on this planet, and Aliens come down and start excavating and find all these McDonald's everywhere, that they're gonna think "Man, McDonalds is EVERYWHERE. This must have been some GOOD. FOOD."... a frightening theory. So maybe Liechtenauer was just a popular charismatic guy who could sell his art. I don't think so(especially considering the number of treatises on the subject - it's a lot harder to write and publish a book in the 14-15th centuries than it is to build a McDonalds), but it's a possibility.
We know that Fiore fought in at least a few duels - he specifically mentions himself that he was 'alone' which leads me to personally believe that this was in a 1 vs. More than one Situation. Tsafa doesn't think he's all that hot, but he also participated in a battle. In any case, he survived a life dedicated to martial studies for over 40 or 50 years, so he must've been what some would refer to as 'Good' at the very minimum - especially considering that every time you fight someone with a sword, there is at a minimum 66% chance of you being mortally wounded.
As was mentioned before, the problem is that there are very few individuals with any sortof exploits that are mentioned in history, a time when printing and publishing were... well, pretty hard to come by to say the least. Makes it a pain to keep records.
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Post by alvin on Aug 28, 2008 19:10:48 GMT
Ummm...from his life's story - what little is known of it that is - it seems that he was a teacher. Those who can - do, those who can't - teach. Musashi has a claim to having fought, as does Silver - by reading between the lines in his Works, and I have seen Master Yoda fight. ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) McBane was definitely a duelist/fighter who happened to also author works as to the use of the sword, the smallsword being his favorite. My kind of warrior. ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 19:20:06 GMT
Ummm...from his life's story - what little is known of it that is - it seems that he was a teacher. Those who can - do, those who can't - teach. Musashi has a claim to having fought, as does Silver - by reading between the lines in his Works, and I have seen Master Yoda fight. ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) McBane was definitely a duelist/fighter who happened to also author works as to the use of the sword, the smallsword being his favorite. My kind of warrior. ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) You're kidding me right? You think Liechtenauer was a hack? Guess what, George Silver taught as well. So did Musashi himself. Just because someone teaches doesn't mean they automatically don't know what they're talking about. That phrase is dumb, and I don't know where it originated but if I ever find the guy I'm gonna punch him in the mouth. (exaggerated of course) Please note I'm NOT TRYING TO DISCREDIT SILVER, MCBANE, NOR MUSASHI!!!!!![/b] So please don't take it as such. Credit where credit is due, and there's a lot due to Liechtenauer. Edit: Forgive me for getting riled up, I just can't believe somebody would just insinuate that Liechtenauer is a hack on the sole grounds that he was a teacher.
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Post by alvin on Aug 28, 2008 19:28:25 GMT
Ummm...from his life's story - what little is known of it that is - it seems that he was a teacher. Those who can - do, those who can't - teach. Musashi has a claim to having fought, as does Silver - by reading between the lines in his Works, and I have seen Master Yoda fight. ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) McBane was definitely a duelist/fighter who happened to also author works as to the use of the sword, the smallsword being his favorite. My kind of warrior. ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) You're kidding me right? You think Liechtenauer was a hack? Guess what, George Silver taught as well. So did Musashi himself. Just because someone teaches doesn't mean they automatically don't know what they're talking about. That phrase is dumb, and I don't know where it originated but if I ever find the guy I'm gonna punch him in the mouth. (exaggerated of course) Please note I'm NOT TRYING TO DISCREDIT SILVER, MCBANE, NOR MUSASHI!!!!!![/b] So please don't take it as such. Credit where credit is due, and there's a lot due to Liechtenauer. Edit: Forgive me for getting riled up, I just can't believe somebody would just insinuate that Liechtenauer is a hack on the sole grounds that he was a teacher.[/quote] I am wondering who would be the European candidates for "greatest swordsman ever"? I'm not thinking along the lines of Achilles.... someone more recent, with varifiable one-on-one victories to his name. I'm not asking a lame "who would kick who's butt" question.... (the answer of course is obvious ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ..... fully armoured Knight would be nearly invincible to someone armed with a katana-even a yari would have a hard time with full 15th century plate)... I'm just wondering whether Europe had swordsmen of that calibre (surely they must have!) and if so, what were their names and stories? Whoa !!! Calm down a little !! ![:o](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) I thought that the question posed by carlisle related to Western swordsmen of note due to their prowess as fighters/duelists. I'm sure that Liechtenauer knew of what he wrote/taught, but there is apparently no evidence that he ever fought, which is the premise of this thread. I don't know, you're the moderator, please correct me if I'm wrong. ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Edit - I just read your edit. Please don't put words in my mouth.
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Post by YlliwCir on Aug 28, 2008 19:37:27 GMT
“Those who can do, those who can’t teach” HL Mencken (1880-1956).
And you thought you were gonna piss the JSA folks off, Jim. LOL
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 19:58:31 GMT
Just because we don't have evidence that Liechtenauer fought, doesn't mean that he didn't. He lived in the 1300s for crying out loud. We also don't have any historical evidence that Liechtenauer had any parents - they aren't ever mentioned in any sources. But there liechtenauer was so he must have had parents. In a similar vein, one must assume he acquired his prestige somewhere, as I know of no European Swordsman with half the notoriety of Liechtenauer. So though we do not currently know of any sources citing liechtenauer as a fighter, there MUST be somewhere, whether destroyed or just not yet found. When dozens of masters of defence all agree that this one guy is the best, you'd best believe them.
The question was regarding european swordsman of high claibre of whom Liechtenauer is an obvious candidate- and you said, in regards to Liechtenauer, "Those who can - do, those who can't - teach" implying or insinuating that Liechtenauer could not 'do', therefore indirectly calling him a hack. I'm not putting words in your mouth at all. Just calling you out on your accusation of liechtenauer.
Your post disparages Liechtenauer while lauding Silver and McBane. I say nothing negative about Silver or McBone - I merely give Liechtenauer his credit.
Note: this is Adam the Guy who likes swords and stuff posting, not Adam the Moderator of SBG.
Also: I'm gonna find HL Mencken's grave give him the finger or something, as digging him up to punch him in the mouth might not be taken to too well.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 28, 2008 23:23:06 GMT
HL Mencken is buried at the Mencken Family gravesite at Loudon Park cemetery, 3620 Wilkens Avenue, Baltimore, MD. Adam, just in case you might want to take the road trip, you could stoop to the old "wee wee on your grave" kind of insult?... ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) I have to side with Adam on the likelihood of Liechtenauer being an accomplished swordsman. I am personally acquainted with several gentlemen who can teach fighting skills very well, and have also survived numerous (dozens) of lethal fights and are recognized experts on the subject. In that arena, the charlatans don't usually seem to last long. At least their popularity doesn't seem to last long. Of course, that's not to say that everyone who is a good fighter is a good teacher. IMO it's pretty rare to be able to do both at a high level.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 23:32:19 GMT
You can be an amazing fighter and be worthless as a teacher.
You can't be an amazing teacher without also being at minimum an accomplished fighter.
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Post by alvin on Aug 28, 2008 23:52:00 GMT
You can be an amazing fighter and be worthless as a teacher. You can't be an amazing teacher without also being at minimum an accomplished fighter. That second remark doesn't make sense. And again, the question posed by this thread is not about whether a Western "swordsman" was a great teacher, or whether that person might have been a great fighter because he could teach or write books about swordsmanship, but which historical Western swordsmen had a record comparable to Musashi's history as a fighter. The "likelihood" of this being possible wasn't stated as part of the question posed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2008 0:59:52 GMT
Okay, let me break it down:
The goal: Find European Swordsmen of high calibre, Japanese example of Musashi given.
The candidate: Johannes Liechtenauer.
Reason: Codified a system of swordsmanship that spread across countries and lasted for 400 years. Sword masters weren't considered desirable without claiming lineage to him. All his students sing his praises as an excellent teacher, and that his Art is a true and perfect art.
Counter Statement 1: No records exist of Liechtenauer's duels.
Counter to Counter 1: That doesn't mean he never duelled, as information from that time period is scarce at best. It follows logical suit that given his reputation and the esteem he was shown long after his death(300 years and still claiming lineage through his teachings) that he was extraordinarily talented as a swordsman.
Counter Statement 2: People who are good do the thing they are good at. Those who aren't, teach instead. Therefore, because Liechtenauer was a teacher, he mustn't've been that good.
Counter to Counter 2: It is not possible to teach well without a solid understanding of the subject matter you are teaching. Furthermore, the only way to gain a solid understanding of a martial art is to be an accomplished and experienced martial artist, i.e. Martial Arts cannot be merely intellectualized - but practiced, experienced, and physically developed. Therefore, as Liechtenauer had such a good understanding of so many different weapons and even unarmed combat, he must have been an experienced martial artist with a varied background to have such a well developed understanding of the underlying principles of martial arts, which reveals itself to be no less sophisticated than any of the codified Japanese schools of martial arts.
Counter 3: Liechtenauer *might* have been a good fighter - as evidenced by his teachings. But the query is about what is verifiable. As we cannot verify Liechtenauer's personal skill, he is excluded from consideration.
Counter to Counter 3: Given the example of Miyamoto Musashi - it is not without some scholarly debate that even he was as good as many would believe - as in most accounts of most duels he participated in, there is controversy as to the circumstances of his victory. It is not therefore truly verifiable that he was of as amazing calibre as would commonly be believed. This is not to say that he was definitely less than that, only to illustrate the inherent impossibility of truly verifying the skill of *any* historic swordsman from a period so many years ago. It should also be noted that Liechtenauer himself lived several hundred years before Musashi, having an estimated birthday around 1350 AD.
I hope that makes a little bit more sense.
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Post by alvin on Aug 29, 2008 1:16:33 GMT
I see that there is a big problem here. The thread's question related to FIGHTERS - not idol/hero worship. There are historical records that show that the other persons mentioned so far in this thread at least have a documented history of being fighters - whether one wishes to believe the record or not. While Johannes Liechtenauer left a great heritage of work behind, there is, again, apparently no record of him being a FIGHTER.
If I have read carlisle's intent wrongly, well put it down to the misunderstanding of a confused, fat old man. But, I will not continue arguing endlessly over this really unimportant issue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2008 4:13:13 GMT
fine. Hercules. crap load ole records of him fighting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2008 7:46:05 GMT
you are right - there are no known written record of Liechtenauer fighting.
I just think it's silly to automatically assume he didn't fight because of that.
Furthermore, I believe it's obvious that he must have been an excellent fighter - as the culture of the period is different from how it is now. To make claims like liechtenauer did, people expected you to back it up - given that he was never discredited, we can conclude that he did 'back it up' as it were. So even though there are no specific records of him fighting - the material that we do have all but confirms it, in my mind at least. So...
Great european swordsmen? We've got George Silver (oddly no actual records or him really dueling much either - just him recounting having challenged a bunch of different italians over the years), and McBone.
I say Liechtenauer as well, but, to the OP - it's up to you whether or not you want to bring him up to your friend as one of the greats. I've presented my case for why I think he should be included, though there are those that disagree.
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Post by oos3thoo on Sept 3, 2008 22:56:58 GMT
fine. Hercules. crap load ole records of him fighting. To my knowledge, Hercules isn't really acknowledged as a real person.
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