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Post by JH Lee on Jan 28, 2021 15:53:45 GMT
Have any of you come across issues/problems when practicing with a partner who is substantially taller or shorter than you are? For example, in JSA, there are certain strikes and counters that are "choreographed" (in kata drills) that aim at the head/neck of the opponent. I have found that it is extremely difficult to teach or learn such techniques -- which you can only really properly learn with a practice partner -- when paired with someone who is literally a head taller than I am. The angles just don't make sense in those contexts. And over-extending just to touch their foreheads with the tip of my bokken, while maintaining proper distance etc, just for the sake of doing a particular move... leaves me unbalanced and vulnerable. And that's just one example where the height difference doesn't allow for the proper learning (nevermind correct execution) of specific techniques.
Interested to hear from your experiences, thoughts, and possible solutions. Thanks guys.
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Post by Murffy on Jan 28, 2021 18:31:26 GMT
Have any of you come across issues/problems when practicing with a partner who is substantially taller or shorter than you are? For example, in JSA, there are certain strikes and counters that are "choreographed" (in kata drills) that aim at the head/neck of the opponent. I have found that it is extremely difficult to teach or learn such techniques -- which you can only really properly learn with a practice partner -- when paired with someone who is literally a head taller than I am. The angles just don't make sense in those contexts. And over-extending just to touch their foreheads with the tip of my bokken, while maintaining proper distance etc, just for the sake of doing a particular move... leaves me unbalanced and vulnerable. And that's just one example where the height difference doesn't allow for the proper learning (nevermind correct execution) of specific techniques. Interested to hear from your experiences, thoughts, and possible solutions. Thanks guys. Can you adapt the kata, say, Tall Opponent Variation #1, something like that. If the essence of martial arts is to prepare for battle, different sized opponents seem like an opportunity. As a tall guy, in many ways I figure I'm at a disadvantage in a sword fight. I'm a bigger target and have more area to defend. I'm not sure my greater reach necessarily compensates.
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Post by pellius on Jan 28, 2021 19:42:09 GMT
Have any of you come across issues/problems when practicing with a partner who is substantially taller or shorter than you are? For example, in JSA, there are certain strikes and counters that are "choreographed" (in kata drills) that aim at the head/neck of the opponent. I have found that it is extremely difficult to teach or learn such techniques -- which you can only really properly learn with a practice partner -- when paired with someone who is literally a head taller than I am. The angles just don't make sense in those contexts. And over-extending just to touch their foreheads with the tip of my bokken, while maintaining proper distance etc, just for the sake of doing a particular move... leaves me unbalanced and vulnerable. And that's just one example where the height difference doesn't allow for the proper learning (nevermind correct execution) of specific techniques. Interested to hear from your experiences, thoughts, and possible solutions. Thanks guys. Can you adapt the kata, say, Tall Opponent Variation #1, something like that. If the essence of martial arts is to prepare for battle, different sized opponents seem like an opportunity. As a tall guy, in many ways I figure I'm at a disadvantage in a sword fight. I'm a bigger target and have more area to defend. I'm not sure my greater reach necessarily compensates. That is an interesting point that, as a guy of average height, I had not considered. I always perceived the reach advantage as nearly overwhelming.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 28, 2021 19:48:16 GMT
Well now, that is a deep topic that has many rabbit holes to explore. Some styles of JSA do indeed require opponents to be of similar height in order for them to work correctly, others do not.
My personal view on the subject is to learn the basics, then spar with anybody that comes your way. Learn to use the skills developed from the study of kata against larger/smaller/taller/shorter opponents. You will see that one size wrench doesn't fit every nut. The more you practice with diverse opponents, the better you will know which techniques to use.
Adapt. Don't be rigid in your style or thinking. Move closer when you need to, keep your distance if you have to. Go in from underneath when the opportunity presents itself, and hit hard from the top if given the chance. Move your damn feet.
In general I will fight a taller opponent by going inside their reach and fighting close. The smaller guys are the worst because they can use their sword as a freaking umbrella shield, for them, it's important to be patient and wait for the opening, being on defense most of the time.
Also learn to bind. It's not much taught in most JSA techniques, but it certainly comes in handy under the right conditions. It can negate the opponent's size advantages and give you a second or two to think.
The only way to learn is by doing. Don't be afraid to get hit a lot when learning, that is the purpose of practice.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jan 28, 2021 20:35:08 GMT
I can attest to the fact we have a 'tall man fight' and a 'short man fight'... Like Murffy says, its about using your strengths to make opportunity.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 28, 2021 21:03:24 GMT
And over-extending just to touch their foreheads with the tip of my bokken, while maintaining proper distance etc, just for the sake of doing a particular move... leaves me unbalanced and vulnerable. And that's just one example where the height difference doesn't allow for the proper learning (nevermind correct execution) of specific techniques. Kata are not there for you to learn specific techniques. You can (and should) learn the techniques in isolation first, and can continue to improve on them, drilling them in isolation. Two-person kata are teaching you the next two levels. First, there is adapting techniques for use on an opponent (moving, not moving as you planned, trying to hit you) while still presenting a much more controlled environment than sparring/free-play. This included learning how to adjust technique for use on a taller or shorter opponent. This isn't a defect in the use of kata, but a function of this use of kata - it's an opportunity for you to learn how to use the techniques in broader circumstances. Second, the kata are teaching you tactical lessons. Not in the form of "this is exactly what you will do in a fight", but lessons in how to successfully interact with an opponent. For these lessons to be learned, the kata must be a little flexible, a little elastic. With a good teacher and a good partner, the kata will be.
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Post by JH Lee on Jan 28, 2021 21:24:10 GMT
Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Please keep them coming!
Our curriculum does not have sparring, for better or worse. But I 100% agree with how the purpose of learning forms/kata is to apply those techniques with versatility and creativity in diverse settings against all manner of opponents, weapons, etc.
The problem for me (I am just 5'9'') is that I feel like I'm not learning certain parries/counters (for example) properly when paired with someone who is 6'+. In a "real life" situation, I would try to use the height difference to my advantage somehow, even using the immediate environment and adapting accordingly.
But in the dojo, where I'm there to just learn and not "win" anything, it's a whole different problem. Perhaps even more serious, I also feel extremely bad when I am in the position of showing someone else (who is taller) how to perform a certain move for the first time. Even the most basic one where the opponent steps forward and cuts toward the head, and you deflect/parry and step forward at an angle while counter-striking at the opponent's head... the height differences just make it awkward and clumsy. I can't strike at my practice partner's head at the right height and angle to where he can learn the correct "feel" of the technique that he could and should be learning from someone who is more similar to him physically.
Am I over-thinking this and it's actually all good practice? I guess one big problem is that there just aren't that many students in any one class, so we can't be too choosy who we get paired up with. Any advice/opinions welcome!
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 29, 2021 12:54:35 GMT
Timo gave excellent advice and I agree with him on every point.
As far as dojo training is concerned, being awkward is normal. That is the reason for training in a controlled environment. You have to remember that it's not only awkward for you, but the taller/shorter person as well. But don't fight against it, learn to work with it.
Practice technique on a stationary dummy if you have to. When you go against a taller person, you can then modify the technique slightly to compensate. The world isn't perfect and you can't change that fact.
After learning the basic moves, and learning kata, then when you spar you can apply that knowledge to the situation. As I stated before, if the opponent is taller, then forget about head shots and go underneath or go close. However, I have seen very short dudes absolutely ring the bell of a very tall opponent- they simply learned to wait for an opening and then do a jump hit.
You have to work with how you are built physically, then apply your brain knowledge. You will achieve great things if you work with your intellect and physique as a unified system.
I don't think you are overthinking things. I feel your questions are pertinent to your training. I do feel you might be obsessing over finding a fixed XYZ formula answer. Relax. Calm you mind. Focus on the sword tip. Look at your opponents eyes, not his sword. Relax. Don't forget to breathe.
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Post by JH Lee on Jan 29, 2021 14:10:33 GMT
Thank you. That's actually very helpful.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 29, 2021 15:09:11 GMT
Think of technique and kata as tools. You have a box of tools of different functions. You have screwdrivers, wrenches of various sizes, hammers, feeler gauges, files and punches. You know what each tool does and how to apply that tool to it's specific application.
Now you have a broken engine to fix. You look at the engine and see screws, nuts, and other components. It's now up to you to apply your knowledge of tools to your mechanical knowledge of engines and apply the correct tools and techniques to repair the problem. You might have to use 3 different sizes of wrenches, two pry bars, a gasket scraper, and a torque wrench to fix the problem. The other tools remain unused in the box.
Now you have a broken door on your house. Using the same tool box, you need a screwdriver, a wood file, and a hammer to fix the problem. The other tools remain unused in the tool box.
Now you try to fix the engine with the tools you used to repair the door. It doesn't work. Nor will repairing the door with the tools you used to fix the engine. You have to use the right tools for the job, and have the knowledge of how to do it.
Now fix the engine or the door (or your kid's favorite toy) with only one tool. It's the tool you like and understand, so it's the only tool you bought. You become frustrated because you now blame the broken object for your lack of success in repairing it.
This is how training works. Each technique is a tool, each kata is education on how the techniques work in application. But it's up to you to select the correct technique when faced with an opponent. One technique/ training method/ thought process doesn't apply to every situation. Nor is it possible to know in advance the entire game-play of a sparring match (or a real fight).
You absolutely must build a killer tool box with all kinds of things in it. Like one of those Snap-On boxes with a second story. Then, when you spar (or real fight) you will have enough skills (tools) to know what to do in that particular and unique situation.
Relax. Stay calm. Think. And don't forget to breathe.
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Post by Murffy on Jan 29, 2021 21:12:00 GMT
Think of technique and kata as tools. You have a box of tools of different functions. You have screwdrivers, wrenches of various sizes, hammers, feeler gauges, files and punches. You know what each tool does and how to apply that tool to it's specific application. Now you have a broken engine to fix. You look at the engine and see screws, nuts, and other components. It's now up to you to apply your knowledge of tools to your mechanical knowledge of engines and apply the correct tools and techniques to repair the problem. You might have to use 3 different sizes of wrenches, two pry bars, a gasket scraper, and a torque wrench to fix the problem. The other tools remain unused in the box. Now you have a broken door on your house. Using the same tool box, you need a screwdriver, a wood file, and a hammer to fix the problem. The other tools remain unused in the tool box. Now you try to fix the engine with the tools you used to repair the door. It doesn't work. Nor will repairing the door with the tools you used to fix the engine. You have to use the right tools for the job, and have the knowledge of how to do it. Now fix the engine or the door (or your kid's favorite toy) with only one tool. It's the tool you like and understand, so it's the only tool you bought. You become frustrated because you now blame the broken object for your lack of success in repairing it. This is how training works. Each technique is a tool, each kata is education on how the techniques work in application. But it's up to you to select the correct technique when faced with an opponent. One technique/ training method/ thought process doesn't apply to every situation. Nor is it possible to know in advance the entire game-play of a sparring match (or a real fight). You absolutely must build a killer tool box with all kinds of things in it. Like one of those Snap-On boxes with a second story. Then, when you spar (or real fight) you will have enough skills (tools) to know what to do in that particular and unique situation. Relax. Stay calm. Think. And don't forget to breathe. I'm mostly an armchair swordfighter and this all makes good sense to me. However, I've come across the notion of drilling a relative handful of techniques until they're ingrained in your bones, so to speak, and this would serve you better in a "hot" combat situation when you're conscious mind is overwhelmed and you can act only on instinct. I'd be interested in your thoughts (and those of others).
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 29, 2021 22:40:25 GMT
As I said earlier, the rabbit hole runs deep.
Yes, learning a few moves well will serve you better than knowing many moves badly. 100%.
At the same time, don't become so rigid in your thinking that you aren't able to adapt.
It literally can take years of study and practice to understand this concept.
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