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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 12:47:17 GMT
I know this has come up before, but I was wondering if anyone has ever seen any recreation practice for gladitorial (or Roman in general) styles of practice and sparring. Some videos of people who practice and show you how to practice as they do would be pretty cool, as I'm assuming at some point someone will probably tackle the subject 😎
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 17, 2020 13:45:54 GMT
Look up Greek Pancration (sp?) Its their old style combat wrestling. The Romans would have adopted whatever it had evolved into. Or at least that's my guess....
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Post by RufusScorpius on Nov 17, 2020 14:08:39 GMT
Interesting topic. Be very aware that Roman gladiator fighting was NOT an actual martial art- it was highly ritualistic and done for entertaining the people. It was different than the training regular fighting soldiers would get
Keep in mind that the gladiators were the pro wrestlers of their day and they rarely got hurt(because they made lots of money for the promoters)
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Nov 17, 2020 14:50:57 GMT
Heh, so they did spectacular drop flip smashes against downed enemies...to only be beaten by an irate owner with a chair. Gotcha
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 17, 2020 15:22:22 GMT
I know there was a historical experiment from an university or institute with students in the excaveted arena of Carnuntum/Austria. The lived there in tents and trained with and without weapons for several weeks to see what happens to the body. If you search Carnuntum and gladiators with this info you'll probably find something about. Just found this: www.thelocal.de/20100329/26185Another name for searching is Dr. Marcus Junckelmann: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_JunkelmannHe's an historian for Roman martial culture and made experiments too. He can be seen in many documentaries at least here in Germany.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Nov 17, 2020 16:36:26 GMT
Heh, so they did spectacular drop flip smashes against downed enemies...to only be beaten by an irate owner with a chair. Gotcha Very nearly true! They were there for entertainment and rarely got hurt. They would put on a theater show along with the fight. People would place bets, famous gladiators would draw in the fans, and they even had product endorsements and celebrity business openings. Very modern in every way, a contemporary sports fan could go back in time to Roman era and understand everything they were doing business wise. Now, the gladiators were the paid professionals, everybody else was on their own. POW's, criminals, people wanting to settle feuds, etc, were the ones that got killed and maimed. Even in blood matches, pro gladiators were paired with nobodies to ensure the promoter's very expensive investment and money making machine would not be hurt. People today, unfortunately, only know the arena from Hollywood, and we know how accurate Hollywood is when it comes to history.
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Post by Curtis_Louis on Nov 17, 2020 16:44:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 17:52:37 GMT
Well this is a sad turn about on the subject lol. I mean, aside from the wrestling one. That one I am gonna look more into
I guess the best one can do is do so man soldier style training and hope for the best, as their power came from formation mostly anyway. I was hoping their gladitorial side of life would be similar to duels that were fought in other parts of Europe, with specific training. But at the same time, thays incredibly interesting to know how they were basically just a more dangerous WCW
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Post by RufusScorpius on Nov 17, 2020 18:55:46 GMT
The Romans certainly had duels to settle legal matters. It was in fact, one of the more important functions of the arena and critical to Roman law. The fighting was really just two guys using whatever skills they had. Some would be veterans, some might have gladiator training, some nothing at all. It was a mixed bag. They didn't have a formal European style tradition of dueling.
Not to say being a gladiator was exactly safe: there were times when game sponsors would pay for pro gladiator death matches. It wasn't nearly as common as we are led to believe. It would be the modern equivalent of taking 20 brand new Ferraris and 20 brand new McLarens and having them do a demolition derby. Entertaining, but stupidly expensive, especially when cheaper and more disposable options are available.
The takeaway from this is that gladiator training isn't actually combat training, although in a pinch it would work.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 22:47:16 GMT
What would a person search to learn for one on one combat, regarding Greek or Roman style sword and shield?
Reason I ask, is I got a round steel shield on the way and I wanna use it with my leaf blade (Danu), and I can kinda see whatever it is they did in one on one stuff working really well for training
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Post by RufusScorpius on Nov 18, 2020 1:02:36 GMT
I've always been meaning to research individual combat methods from that time, but never really got around to doing it. From what I know so far, the Romans and Greeks always fought in formations so all surviving texts talk about that. Individual combat writings are exclusively about the arena.
I do know that they loved boxing and wrestling, so its not much of a stretch to imagine their individual fight techniques would be heavily influenced by that. The scutum, after all, is designed to use the center boss as big az brass knuckles. We do have to be careful when theorizing their style as not to taint our views on how they fought by interjection of our 2000 years of extra knowledge.
My best thoughts on the topic come from descriptions of individual combat as told in The Iliad. Outside of the storytelling art, I think they give a fairly accurate account of ancient battlefields and dueling.
At least that is the theory which drives my research.
To answer your question about where to search, I would think somewhere underneath the ash of Pompeii and Herculaneum.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 18, 2020 6:23:40 GMT
There are three main souces for GMA (gladiator martial arts ): Mosaics or reliefs showing scenes of gladiator fights. Injuries on excavated bones of gladiators. And experimental history. There were many types of gladiators with different weapons, it can't be reduced to gladius and round shield. A good fighting style for this could be the Scottish targe and dirk or broadsword (a short one then ). Not extremely related to formations, similar weapons, not too sophisticated.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 8:47:09 GMT
There are three main souces for GMA (gladiator martial arts ): Mosaics or reliefs showing scenes of gladiator fights. Injuries on excavated bones of gladiators. And experimental history. There were many types of gladiators with different weapons, it can't be reduced to gladius and round shield. A good fighting style for this could be the Scottish targe and dirk or broadsword (a short one then ). Not extremely related to formations, similar weapons, not too sophisticated. You know, the more I think about it, the more that answer makes a ton of sense to me. Thanks man, wrestling and boxing makes a ton of sense for every single thing you would need to be in fighting shape Of course actual sparring is also necessary too, but these would be a great modern way to build for it, along with Pell training Only thing I hate is wrestling. I hate laying down with some dude on the ground lol. It suck's how necessary that part is of over all fighting tho. I wonder if judo could fill the void here? Tossing people and being tossed kinda suck's too, but it's preferable to wrestling
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Post by RufusScorpius on Nov 18, 2020 14:08:16 GMT
I would think more that Viking style fighting would be appropriate. The Viking sword is the grandson of the Spatha, and the circular shield is about right. Therefore, similar weapons would imply similar fighting styles. Of course, this is a speculative "best guess" as we don't have any good information on Roman single combat styles.
BUT.... we must take things in a cultural context and not impose our own bias into the problem. Fact: we don't have any documents or artwork showing a Roman carrying a gladius or scutum outside of a military context. FACT: we don't have any documents or artwork showing Roman civilians engaging in fights, armed or unarmed, outside of sporting events. FACT: gladiators were restricted to specific weapons and fighting styles according to a traditional set of rules. FACT: Every Roman carried a pugio (wide leaf dagger). FACT: We have lots of documents showing that Romans liked to stab things- it was a bit dangerous to walk around after dark by yourself and gods help you if you were a politician. FACT- Romans really liked simple no-nonsense solutions to problems FACT: personal disputes were legally settled by death fight in the public arenas due to the Roman's love of law and order.
Taking what is known fact- I would surmise that Romans didn't engage in medieval or renaissance style duels so much as just walked up to somebody and started stabbing them if they felt the urge to do so. With death matches being an established legal means of settling disputes, I would also surmise that it was ONLY done in the arena to make it official instead of murder. And from my incomplete research at this time, it would appear that even the civilian matches in the arenas were done according to gladiatorial rules and weaponry.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Nov 18, 2020 14:16:44 GMT
Only thing I hate is wrestling. I hate laying down with some dude on the ground lol. It suck's how necessary that part is of over all fighting tho. I wonder if judo could fill the void here? Tossing people and being tossed kinda suck's too, but it's preferable to wrestling Learn to get over that. Nearly every hand to hand fight ends up on the ground. It would be a shame to never train for the fight you are actually going to have. Wrestling is good, so is Brazilian Ju-Jitsu.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 17:59:42 GMT
The shield I got has an arm strap. Limits how much I can work around it, so I've been looking into some kite shield and arming sword stuff. I think I might just go that route.
And I tried get over it, but I tea bagged a dudes head once and never went back 😂 I was in it for a few months but after that incident, I don't think I can do it anymore
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