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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 17:33:45 GMT
From LoTR/Silmarillion. I like this design. link
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Post by soulfromheart on Nov 15, 2020 18:53:31 GMT
I so loved this design too but if I remember clearly, it is a design from a 3D Artist on DeviantArt/CGTrader.
He had a (European) "Dragon Sword" design I really loved too.
Someone up for a custom order ? ðŸ¤
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 19:11:39 GMT
Custom order? Yes and no. Problem is custom orders (for me) take 6 months of savings, if not longer. Doable, but no instant gratification. A lot of people on this board drop thousands without thinking. I'm poor.
If you have it handy, I'd love to see the other one. The "Dragon Sword".
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Post by soulfromheart on Nov 15, 2020 19:55:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 21:02:46 GMT
Wow. Just wow.
I wish someone would make a sword of Anglachel. I wish someone would also make a sword of Feanor - a functional one. The Darksword Sword of Feanor looks beautiful, but sucks as a blade. I've got to give them kudo's for trying, but I won't buy it.
There's good stuff out of Tolkien mythos that could be made, if more real sword makers (and axe & mace makers) would get creative with it. Not just the stuff Peter Jackson has done.
I feel half the stuff Peter Jackson's done he's gotten wrong to begin with. Like Orcrist. That's not the blade I imagined Ecthelion had. But even if sword makers avoided items Jackson has already done, there's good stuff out there that can be done right. Stuff of even more collectible value. LoTR fans will know all the weapons I list below.
1) sword of Feanor 2) Ringil (sword of Fingolfin) 3) Anglachel (sword of Turin, made by Eol) 4) Anguirel (mate of Anglachel, made by Eol) 5) Aranruth (sword of Thingol) 6) Angrist (made by Telchar, slices iron like butter) 7) Dagmor (Beren's sword) 8) barrow blades (Arnor blades from the barrow, one of which took down the Lord of the Nazgul) 9) Dramborleg (baddest-ass axe of all time) 10) Durin's Axe (badass in its own right) 11) Herugrim (sword of Theoden) 12) Morgul knife 13) Grond (mace of Morgoth!?)
There are others. And bows. And armor.
I'm bummed out more artisans aren't working to create stuff with all this fantasy material to work with. Nutcase Tolkien fans like me will find ways to buy them. Globally.
If they existed, and were quality, we'd save up to buy them.
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Post by tancred on Nov 16, 2020 10:34:51 GMT
Windlass made their "Black Sword." You could tell by their description that it was definitely meant to be Gurthang, but they couldn't outright say "Gurthang," "Anglachel," or "Turin Turambar." I'm probably one of the biggest Turin fans you could ever meet, but I had no desire to go for this sword. It was too fantastical. The more fantastical a sword is, the less I like it. The more grounded in history it is, the more I like it. Why? Because Tolkien's works are most definitely grounded in reality and history, and more specifically, the reality and history of the European Middle Ages--roughly 800--1150 (imo). I'm so glad you criticized Peter Jackson's designs for weapons in the movies. I'm critical, too, and agree he only got things half right. Again, why? Because in half of his designs, he went too fantastical. PJ and Co designed things very well for most of the Mannish and Hobbit stuff. For Dwarves, Orcs, and Elves, they go off the rails. Esp. the Elves. Can't stand most of those designs. (did I forget to mention that Elves don't have pointy ears, and Balrogs don't have wings? ) As for the link posted above of one artist's 3D rendering of Gurthang and the Dragon Helm, I don't care for the sword design at all. The helm looks better, but it still isn't quite right. Part of the problem is actually with the great Tolkien's story here; he never did say exactly what happened to the Dragon Helm. Turin had it as Lord of the Land of the Bow and Helm, but what happened to it when he was captured? Did the Orcs take it as plunder, and Beleg and Gwindor retrieve it at the same time they freed Turin? Or, did the Orcs cast it aside after they captured Turin, and Beleg pick it up so that he could return it to his friend? Turin has a visored helm (Dwarf Mask) later in Nargothrond, but is this the Dragon Helm, or a different one altogether? Tolkien's text is vague and confused on these points. In a part of the text that Tolkien (I believe) marked through for rejection, Turin is still wearing this visored helm when he faces Glaurung before the gates of Nargothrond. Turin is wise enough to keep the visor down, and not look the dragon in the eyes. But, Glaurung taunts this act as cowardly, and so, Turin in arrogance and pride, raises the visor to look his foe in the eyes. Thus, Glaurung is able to bewitch him. Does Turin still have a helm after this, and is it the Dragon Helm, or if the visored Dwarf Mask is different than the Dragon Helm, is it this visored helm? Again, Tolkien marked through a part of the text for rejection that was to have Turin still have one of these helms later when he kills Glaurung. So, that's why the aforementioned 3D Dragon Helm posted above might not be quite right--it doesn't have a visor. (neither does Alan Lee's probably more famous rendering of it in the illustrated "The Children of Hurin.") Me personally? I think the Dragon Helm is the same visored helm that Turin wears as he faces Glaurung. It is also one of the rare occasions where Tolkien veers from his early Middle Age reality, and goes more towards the high Middle Age reality. I say this, because I think the ideal Dragon Helm, the one most faithful to the texts (even though some were rejected) is a houndskull bascinet. It has a visor, so it fits the bill on that part. Tolkien clearly stated the Dragon Helm had an image or visage of a golden dragon on it in mockery of Glaurung. Can you imagine a houndskull bascinet where the wearer's eye slits are the "dragon's" eyes? Maybe surround the outside of the slits with enamel or jewels to show the eye color. The pointed snout of the helm would easily resemble a pointed dragon's snout. And one could have the breathing holes or vents designed and placed in different ways to resemble both the "dragon's" nostrils and teeth. Something like that. As for Gurthang, I've contemplated having a custom. The blade is supposed to be made from the smelted and forged rock that fell from the sky. I thought maybe a damascus type folded blade would look cool. But it is also described as being completely black, except for the very sharp edge, which shone white. So, damascus would look cool, but not quite fit the description. I'd just go with a blackened blade. Not just the blade, but the guard, hilt, and pommel, too. Its part of the reason I don't like the 3D rendering of Gurthang posted above. Its too flashy, and not black. I imagine Gurthang as a plain sword--it lets itself do the talking (literally, too!), and doesn't need any flash. Everything should be black, and pretty much no embellishments. No marks at all on the blade. Maybe runes around the pommel or on the guard saying simply "Anglachel" on one side, as put there by Eol, and then Turin would add runes saying "Gurthang" on the other. Small, and not flashy. Customs are expensive, though. So, I thought of going the production sword route, and just blackening everything, and maybe having an engraver add the runes. I'd go a little off Tolkien's early Middle Ages reality, and go a little later, and use Windlass' wonderful Arbedo Sword. I already have one, and its one of my favorite swords. I thought of getting a second, so I could keep the one as is, and blacken the second for my own Gurthang. Haven't done that yet, but its on my mind. My very wordy 2 Cents.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 15:19:21 GMT
A black Arbedo would be perfect.
There's two swords above - one posted by me, the other by SoulFromHeart. Are you saying you don't like either of them? I like the first one - its' all black, except for the edges - as it should be. Looks almost like an Arbedo. It's too thin where the blade meets the hilt, but I do like it. Wish something like this would come out in production.
You know your Tolkien, man! Glad we agree that some of the existing Jackson production models just aren't right. Not the way I envisioned them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 15:50:05 GMT
I'm so glad you criticized Peter Jackson's designs for weapons in the movies. I'm critical, too, and agree he only got things half right. Again, why? Because in half of his designs, he went too fantastical. PJ and Co designed things very well for most of the Mannish and Hobbit stuff. For Dwarves, Orcs, and Elves, they go off the rails. Esp. the Elves. Can't stand most of those designs. (did I forget to mention that Elves don't have pointy ears, and Balrogs don't have wings? The pointed ears matter is open to speculation. There are no explicit references to pointed ears, but there are two references indicating they may be pointed.
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Post by tancred on Nov 16, 2020 18:15:24 GMT
A black Arbedo would be perfect. There's two swords above - one posted by me, the other by SoulFromHeart. Are you saying you don't like either of them? I like the first one - its' all black, except for the edges - as it should be. Looks almost like an Arbedo. It's too thin where the blade meets the hilt, but I do like it. Wish something like this would come out in production. You know your Tolkien, man! Glad we agree that some of the existing Jackson production models just aren't right. Not the way I envisioned them. Sorry, LoE. Been a terribly busy few weeks at work. Replied without having re-read the entire thread, I was so busy and tired. The first sword, the all black one, is fine. I do like the blade shape/type. Its the guard that sinks it, imo. While not too fantastical, it does seem overly big. The top part of the hilt looks a little big, too. I understand the desire to contrast with the tapered lower part of the hilt, but it just makes that lower part and the pommel look too small. Overall, a good design, but not my ideal envisioned Gurthang. The SoulFromHeart design shows that there is talent there, but that's definitely not really faithful to Tolkien's description. I'm not sure my description of my houndskull bascinet idea for the Dragon Helm was all that helpful. It really does look better in my mind! I should probably just draw one or something. It might come across better.
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Post by tancred on Nov 16, 2020 18:30:51 GMT
I'm so glad you criticized Peter Jackson's designs for weapons in the movies. I'm critical, too, and agree he only got things half right. Again, why? Because in half of his designs, he went too fantastical. PJ and Co designed things very well for most of the Mannish and Hobbit stuff. For Dwarves, Orcs, and Elves, they go off the rails. Esp. the Elves. Can't stand most of those designs. (did I forget to mention that Elves don't have pointy ears, and Balrogs don't have wings? The pointed ears matter is open to speculation. There are no explicit references to pointed ears, but there are two references indicating they may be pointed. I hoped my smilies would show I was being a little jokey. I wasn't looking for a fight. However, I am also serious, and I do not believe Elves have pointy ears. You are correct about the couple references to pointyness. I believe both came in context of Tolkien describing the etymology of Legolas' name. I think it is important to remember that these were among Tolkien's later writings, writings that never made it in to published form until after his death, and ones that definitely do not have the added weight of having been in hard form in his established main works (The Sil, The Hobbit, and The LOTR). They were somewhat speculative. I have even heard noted Tolkien scholars call these later writings "non-canon." Don't think I'd go that far, but it is out there. What did make it in The Silmarillion as very established was Tolkien said that, during infancy, Elves and Men were often mistaken one for the other. One could not tell the difference. Some reality here--if such were the case, how could Elves have pointy ears? The pointy ears on a baby Elf would be a dead giveaway. No way to mistake that. Or, are we to believe that baby Elves' ears only became more pointed as they matured? Some more reality--the "Half Elves," the offspring of the few unions between a Man and an Elf. I'll discard Dior due to convenience, as he was not conceived until after Luthhien chose to become mortal. So, Earendil. Did he have regular Mannish ears that only became pointy after he chose immortality? What of Elrond and Elros? Did Elros have pointy ears, but then they fell off or rounded off after he chose to be a Man? Same thing much later on with Arwen--were her ears the supposed pointy Elvish kind, and they fell off after she chose mortality? Or, does it just make more sense that there is no difference between Elf and Mannish ears?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 18:33:59 GMT
The pointed ears matter is open to speculation. There are no explicit references to pointed ears, but there are two references indicating they may be pointed. I hoped my smilies would show I was being a little jokey. I wasn't looking for a fight. However, I am also serious, and I do not believe Elves have pointy ears. You are correct about the couple references to pointyness. I believe both came in context of Tolkien describing the etymology of Legolas' name. I think it is important to remember that these were among Tolkien's later writings, writings that never made it in to published form until after his death, and ones that definitely do not have the added weight of having been in hard form in his established main works (The Sil, The Hobbit, and The LOTR). They were somewhat speculative. I have even heard noted Tolkien scholars call these later writings "non-canon." Don't think I'd go that far, but it is out there. What did make it in The Silmarillion as very established was Tolkien said that, during infancy, Elves and Men were often mistaken one for the other. One could not tell the difference. Some reality here--if such were the case, how could Elves have pointy ears? The pointy ears on a baby Elf would be a dead giveaway. No way to mistake that. Or, are we to believe that baby Elves' ears only became more pointed as they matured? Some more reality--the "Half Elves," the offspring of the few unions between a Man and an Elf. I'll discard Dior due to convenience, as he was not conceived until after Luthhien chose to become mortal. So, Earendil. Did he have regular Mannish ears that only became pointy after he chose immortality? What of Elrond and Elros? Did Elros have pointy ears, but then they fell off or rounded off after he chose to be a Man? Same thing much later on with Arwen--were her ears the supposed pointy Elvish kind, and they fell off after she chose mortality? Or, does it just make more sense that there is no difference between Elf and Mannish ears? I think one could write a doctoral dissertation on pointy ears. Blood has been spilled over whether balrogs have wings, which is why I didn't touch that. Perhaps the points are subtle. I've seen a few humans with slightly pointy ears.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 18:38:15 GMT
I loved the suggestions for the Dragon Helm of Dor'Lomin. Creative as hell, and perceptive. It was indeed helpful.
My hope is vendors out there read threads like this, and use creativity (whether their own or input from others) to create fully-functional models of these fictional items to light. I agree with your statement about "too much fantasy".
What good is a Sword of Feanor that looks great (perhaps to some), but can't cut through a 1/4" branch? I'd be more interested in a functional model that remains true to the mythos - but is fully functional. That's when it becomes a collectors item. At least to me.
There's a market for these things. A global market. Enough so that someone (I hope) will try to bring some of these to production.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 18:43:54 GMT
Regarding Spock-ears - no, I never envisioned Elves as having pointed ears. That was a Peter Jackson-ism to me.
Regarding Balrogs and wings - same. Balrogs had "wings of shadow". I mean, if Durin's Bane had had literal wings, he'd just have flown away from the Bridge of Khazad-dum as it crumbled. Another Jackson-ism to me.
Hey, it worked in the movie. Not the way I envisioned it.
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