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Post by hotspur on Aug 18, 2008 8:13:58 GMT
to bang on tsuba to remove a tsuka. It might seem like the way to go but it really is not. What is scary (to me) is that I just visited a katana seller's site and they are offering a pair of rubber faced gloves and a rubber mallet as a stuck tsuka solution. Rudd B, over at SFI had once supplied this link and it offers the tools. More than that it offers insight into how to better direct force than a rubber mallet on the tsuba. www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tools.htmlOther sites carry the tool for shirasaya, which would work in a pinch but the object of the exercise it to deliver a good sharp blow, close to the habaki and on a seppa. Not a rubber hammer that may or may not still destroy a fragile tsuba and will lose as much energy as it is delivering. Worse, continued banging on the tsuba will rock the opposite side of the tsuba up into the habaki, forcing it further against the machi. Hey, I'm not a Japanese sword guy but I keep reading those wanting to be being somewhat led down the wrong paths. Cheers Hotspur; This may be a repeat for some but I read of others apparently not aware
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 11:39:13 GMT
While I agree that there are tools better suited to the job, a rubber mallet can get the job done. If you're new to swords I won't recommend it though. Also bear in mind that there is a huge difference between TAPPING and HITTING.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 18, 2008 18:26:18 GMT
I'm afraid I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone thinking a rubber mallet be even considered without a device to better direct the energy, tapping or not. How much of the mallet surface area do you figure you can apply directly to the seppa alongside the habaki? How much energy (tapping or not) is lost through using a rubber mallet in the first place?
I see even suggesting a rubber mallet to an experienced owner as useful for this as more counterintuitive than retaialers offering gloves and a rubber mallet as the right tool for the job. In fact, I would be suprised that an experienced owner of katana wouldn't immediately understand the problem.
Cheers
Hotspur; not at all unfamiliar with hand tools
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 18:50:46 GMT
Well I have used it successfully without doing any damage to my sword or its fittings. So I can't really agree in saying it cannot be used.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 18, 2008 19:21:23 GMT
I certainly don't favor the idea, have never used it myself and would only suggest it to a person I feel might actually understand the "proper" method of gently tapping a specific point rather than just banging away at the thing. When I was dismounting my "damascus" katana for some pictures at the request of what would have been a buyer save for what we discovered, I had quite the time getting the tsuka off. I didn't get a mallet, though. Of course, I'm sure tilting the tsuba to make a leverwedge of it didn't do me any favors, either, but the tsuba and seppa (including the one that's permanently affixed to the tsuba ) are unharmed. I don't think this could have caused the crack in the tsuka, either, but who knows how long that had been there? As tight as it was, it was likely there from the beginning, the victim of somebody's mallet approach to putting it on.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 19:30:49 GMT
A rubber mallet can certainly be part of the disassembly process, but I'd definitely agree that it shouldn't be used alone. Below is my "kit" for working on my Japanese styled swords. A rubber mallet, an 8 oz. ball peen, a length of 1/8" diameter brass rod, and a wooden wedge (I can't remember the correct term offhand). The wedge is the key, as it focuses force on the seppa, just above the habaki (which is, in turn, backed up by the ho). The piece of wood cost about $2, and it took about half an hour to shape into what you see here (for those who don't want to fork over the cash to buy one).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 19:35:13 GMT
I think you might have slightly misunderstood me? I'm not actually saying that its a good idea, just that it can be used. Usually my tsuka just requires a light but crisp tap to come off completely, theres no hammering it on or off (and there shouldn't be). I don't want to create the impression that I advocate the use of rubber mallets though, I only said I don't recommend it for someone thats new to swords, as they probably won't know when they're tapping too hard and another tool is needed instead.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 5:34:28 GMT
I use a wood block and a rubber mallet or a hammer personally. It can work in a pinch...but it obviously isn't the BEST way to do it. It is however the CHEAPEST way . That does count for something hehe.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 14:28:14 GMT
AHhh neat tools Glen thanks for sharing!
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Post by 293master293 on Aug 20, 2008 21:50:19 GMT
Yes, please do not use rubber mallets. You must always use STEEL mallets. Just go to town on that tsuba!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 22:19:47 GMT
I think it doesn't really matter if your using a mallet, or a brick... The important thing is to use a proper wedge to focus the pressure towards the beefiest part at the nakago-ana. If you strike a tsuba at the sides it will usually bend and twist the tsuba. I find your average wooden door stop to work well. Never use any kind of hammer directly on any part of your sword... Always have a buffer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 22:45:35 GMT
+1 Jim. I was reading this and wondering what possible difference it could make whether you are using; rubber rawhide, wood or metal. The real point is to hit a narrow piece of wood that is right up against the blade, preferably a piece with a slot that the blade fits into. The Idea being to apply force to the Tsuba on both sides of the blade, very close to the blade. That way you minimize the lateral forces on the Tsuba and Tsuka(I think these are the right terms) so that they wont bend or crack respectively. I don't mean to come off like a know it all, As I certainly don't have any experience with these blades. I cut a piece yesterday while working on my tanto project. It seemed obvious to me what was needed. I was thinking about this thread, trying to figure out what the problem with rubber was. Then.... I HAD A FLASH OF REALIZATION It made me laugh so I figured I would share.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2008 18:59:49 GMT
Here is a site that explains how i was taught to remove the tsuka. also a good sight if you want to drool a little. They have some nice blades and fittings. hope this helps. also a good way to toughen up your wrist ;D www.aoi-art.com/hanbaikousaku/treatment.html
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Post by hotspur on Aug 24, 2008 19:25:36 GMT
The problems seem to arise when new sword owners are faced with tuska that have been force fit onto nakago. When faced with the unmovable and a general lack of experience with hand tools, some have a fair amount of difficulty understanding what to do next. For a retailer to be offering a pair of rubber faced gloves and a rubber mallet to expedite tsuka removal seemed foolish and counterproductive to me. Hence my posting a link to a site that offers a tool (and pretty good graphics) for those tapping/whacking on their tusba with rubber mallets.
Cheers
Hotspur; it is sometimes easier to just laugh at what I read and see offered at low end retail sites but mention here of someone giving up after the rubber mallet didn't move a tsuka quickly, combined with that, prompted me to post.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2008 20:27:03 GMT
The problems seem to arise when new sword owners are faced with tuska that have been force fit onto nakago. When faced with the unmovable and a general lack of experience with hand tools, some have a fair amount of difficulty understanding what to do next. For a retailer to be offering a pair of rubber faced gloves and a rubber mallet to expedite tsuka removal seemed foolish and counterproductive to me. Hence my posting a link to a site that offers a tool (and pretty good graphics) for those tapping/whacking on their tusba with rubber mallets. Cheers Hotspur; it is sometimes easier to just laugh at what I read and see offered at low end retail sites but mention here of someone giving up after the rubber mallet didn't move a tsuka quickly, combined with that, prompted me to post.I think I understand your original post better now! Anyway, I'd say this is some sound advice, even sticky worthy.
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Post by tajima on Aug 25, 2008 9:03:28 GMT
Krieg, perhaps you could provice a side-on stencil of the wedge so we can make our own?
And I assume you use it by putting the brass rod on the end of the edge, tapping it with the hammer/mallet while putting the other end on the Habaki?
I would very much like the stencil if possible.
Thanks, -Tajima
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Post by wiwingti on Aug 27, 2008 1:31:26 GMT
to bang on tsuba to remove a tsuka. It might seem like the way to go but it really is not. What is scary (to me) is that I just visited a katana seller's site and they are offering a pair of rubber faced gloves and a rubber mallet as a stuck tsuka solution. Rudd B, over at SFI had once supplied this link and it offers the tools. More than that it offers insight into how to better direct force than a rubber mallet on the tsuba. www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tools.htmlOther sites carry the tool for shirasaya, which would work in a pinch but the object of the exercise it to deliver a good sharp blow, close to the habaki and on a seppa. Not a rubber hammer that may or may not still destroy a fragile tsuba and will lose as much energy as it is delivering. Worse, continued banging on the tsuba will rock the opposite side of the tsuba up into the habaki, forcing it further against the machi. Hey, I'm not a Japanese sword guy but I keep reading those wanting to be being somewhat led down the wrong paths. Cheers Hotspur; This may be a repeat for some but I read of others apparently not awaredo you know this seller? because ,,,the kit looks good to me but,it looks more like a web page than a store page, not to (offusc anyone with that. i am a begginer and i, at first,tought of maybe breaking the tsuba, so, i didn't try to take off the tsuka. this kit would be better for me i think.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 27, 2008 2:18:15 GMT
The front page to that site is here www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/I had posted it as much for the pictorial information as much as a source. Fred Lohman www.japanese-swords.com/and Shadow of Leaves www.shadowofleaves.com/ sell a shirasaya tool that would work but the slotted tool will impart direct force to the seppa on both sides, as opposed to one. The wood mallet will not absorb energy that you mean to direct (as does a rubber mallet). One could also slot a board or router a hole ala a paddle and then drive against that but the tool shown at that link is a better solution. It is not just tsuba and habaki damage I wonder about but also how many tsuka have nbeen cracked unintentionally by driving them off by using a mallet (of any kind) on the tsuba itself. With some of these inexpensive swords, the methodology used is to get the tsuka on and then drill the mekugi ana. Even if predrilled, a burr from drilling the ana could cause a removal issue. The shortcut of mass production means that even if many tsuka are being made, inlet to a mandrel or "go, no go", they are most often not being made for the individual blade at the low prices. A basket of tsuka goes to the wrapper and then a basket of wrapped tsuka goes to someone stuffing things together. still handmade but hardly in a traditional fashion that assures a good fit. Many others are starting to understand one is really better off gluing them on solidly, if they are not already. There may be some exceptions to the rule but if you are knowingly buying a cheaper katana, be prepared to thow any pretext of historical or traditional craftsmanship right out the window. That's not to sya they might not make a good project to learn a more traditional mount. Anyway, there are a lot of stuck tsuka out there and it is not just on the lower end stuff that it can happen. Cheers Hotspur; sorry if any of it seems preachy
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2008 21:52:30 GMT
Krieg, perhaps you could provice a side-on stencil of the wedge so we can make our own? And I assume you use it by putting the brass rod on the end of the edge, tapping it with the hammer/mallet while putting the other end on the Habaki? I would very much like the stencil if possible. Thanks, -Tajima Hey, Taj, the brass rod and ball peen hammer are used for removing and reinstalling mekugi. The wedge I made is just a "homebrew" version of this: www.japanese-swords.com/pages/nakago.htm. And I use a rubber mallet in place of a wooden one, though wood would be better. I was going to make my own wooden mallet out of some hardwood dowel, but I've never gotten around to it. For the wedge, I used a piece of 1" square poplar from the hardware store along with a saw and some sandpaper to get the shape I wanted. I'll post some up-close pics of it in a bit. Okay. Here's a side view: Bottom view: View of hammering surface at the rear: How wedge fits against sword: I actually cut a little too much out of the front notch in the wedge. The notch in front only needs to be maybe 2mm deep, in order to clear the habaki.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2008 23:30:08 GMT
+1 for a great shot of p.... I mean nice siamese cat there. I had one, it was one of my favorite cats but wouldn't shut up.
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