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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 3:03:59 GMT
Its an interesting topic, and i would be willing to bet if someone hasn't already made a sword from titanium, that there is probably someone on the case as we speak. That being said, isn't titanium pretty expensive? Expensive is relative. I can buy scrap 6AL-4V for roughly the same cost as retail tool steel from many sources but it's largely luck of the draw and can go either way on any given day. That isn't because titanium runs cheap but because somebody's getting a high margin on the tool steel. ELI is more expensive and more rare. Either way materials are dwarfed by labor and other manufacturing expenses. I could make a bronze age pattern sword from 6AL-4V ELI for substantially less than the cost of an Albion but only because I wouldn't be charging myself for labor. There are some superalloys used in aerospace I would absolutely love to do blade and ballistic experiments on but they really are so rare and so expensive I can't get my hands on a useful scrap of it. The closest I ever came was a defective jet turbine component made of waspalloy and that belonged to friend so I couldn't do more than handle and admire it. On the subject of titanium blades it stands to reason that existing bronze and iron sword designs would be in the ballpark but not optimized for titanium construction. The reduced weight would likely give a serious bonus to velocity but I would want to use a portion of that savings in weight to alter the cross section of the blade. What I envision is a blade of standard thickness but significantly wider than a blade made of bronze or iron. This of course means the primary and preferably only bevel would give the sword a very acute edge. While that doesn't make for an especially durable edge it should produce a high velocity razor against light targets. I'd love to see how it would perform but it might be a while before I get around to grinding one out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 3:07:49 GMT
I've read this thread from beginning to end, and all I see it the overcomplication of the blade. A Titanium blade would be lighter. In order to remain the same weight as an average sword, and redistrubute weight, there would be TOO MUCH BLADE. Either the widge or thickness would dreadfully hinder the cutting ability. The lightness would have to be combatted with mass, which means more matter, which means more displacement. It might dry handle like a real sword, but it won't cut for crap. You're mixing up two different ideas I'm talking about. One is a titanium blade in the iron/bronze sword class. The other is a steel blade using titanium hilt and pommel to adjust mass distribution.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 3:09:32 GMT
Its an interesting topic, and i would be willing to bet if someone hasn't already made a sword from titanium, that there is probably someone on the case as we speak. That being said, isn't titanium pretty expensive? That's another thing that shoots the Titanium down. You're paying out the wazoo, and not getting any serious advantages. Look at Boker. They're line of "Cera-Titan" knives isn't selling well. I haven't seen them on the market in about a year. They used a complicated, expensive process to bond ceramics(for edge holding ability) and Titanium(for durability) to make a blade. The abilities of each material in the mix were balanced out by their weaknesses, resulting in a blade that was no better than steel, but cost more than 3 times as much to produce(and thus, WAY MORE than 3 times as much to purchase).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 20:09:50 GMT
Thanks for explanation hammerhand. Now I'm going to have to read up on the "poler moment" of a sword.
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Post by 293master293 on Aug 23, 2008 1:36:54 GMT
At the end of this video, this guy hits a titanium knife with a hammer with no ill effects.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 7:33:21 GMT
Someone did make a titanium sword and they put it up for 12,000. My thoughts, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Swords are fantastic as they are why try to complicate it? Titanium is not a good steel for swords and it is not good as a coating for swords because it leads to titanium nitride embrittlement.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 23, 2008 15:12:23 GMT
Building a blade out of anything but steel doesn't really interest me... until someone makes a demonstrably superior sword. Then I'd be all on board. But as for light-weight hilt components, I'm all on-board for that experiment. I'd REALLY love to see an LPM longsword or single-hander with a titanium or scandium complex guard and intricately shaped pommel. If the weight and mass distribution were just right, it could be almost magical in the hand. In fact, I would dearly love to have just that set of hilt components for my ATrim LPM longsaber. It's already a "magical" handling sword, just ask Adam. ;D But the cross and pommel are very plain. If I could get a complex guard and a fancier pommel that were larger, but still weighed the same, it would make for a much better sword to fight with. Better hand protection without the added weight that's usually required by a complex guard made of steel.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2008 18:36:30 GMT
That's do-able. How much money would you be willing to throw at such a project? To do a standard cross and pommel will probably require $150-$200 of titanium depending on the particulars of the desired shape and size. A complex hilt is harder to ballpark unless I knew exactly what you had in mind. Just adding a ward iron wouldn't raise the cost too much but a type 67 would be tough.
The longsword would be the easiest and cheapest. I'm a saber fan too but I will warn you that adding a ward iron to a sword that doesn't have one will likely make significant changes in the way it handles though titanium will change it less than steel would. Personally I like ward irons because I don't commonly wear a gauntlet and different isn't necessarily worse.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 24, 2008 23:36:01 GMT
I am mostly interested in a guard with side rings ala the A&A German Bastard Sword (without any fancy engraving or swirls), but instead of the S-shaped cross I'd prefer the top tip to be curved forward and the bottom tip to equally curve rearward. My only concern is, how do you weld titanium?
As for a pommel, just something 15th-16th century appropriate but not too complex. It currently has one of Gus' standard scent stopper pommels. I would likely be interested in just changing the guard first, to see what the difference in handling would be. Then a follow up project would be a different pommel.
Hammerhand, your thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 0:38:16 GMT
We must have similar tastes, that form of guard is one my favorites as well though I prefer straight quillons. Titanium can be welded, here is a very general overview. www.timet.com/fab-p27.htm More specific technical information is available online, but suffice it to say that unless you're a serious metalhead you probably don't have a home workshop capable of doing it. Anyway I wouldn't weld the guard. I'd rough cut it from a solid plate, bend the arms of the guard in the desired directions, then grind and polish to final shape and finish. This would be easier and stronger. Depending on how close a match between the required dimensions of the guard and the actual size of scrap plate that can be located I would estimate that the material cost would be closer to the $150 mark based on a .5" thick plate. I wouldn't go much thinner than that if you want the arms of the guard to be round in section. You could probably do 3/8" if you stuck with a square or rectangular section with rounded corners. The pommel shouldn't be hard at all. I come across scrap round stock in appropriate diameters for most any pommel on a fairly regular basis. A scent stopper could be turned or even ground down with some patience and care.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2008 14:30:43 GMT
Ok.......I disagree with many of the posts here and their opinions on whether titanium is suited as blade material. Our friend the blacksmith here is perhaps a little blinded by his personal interest in steel.
My background: I'm an M.D. now, but in my not so distant past I was with the U.S. army special forces. I wont try to paint myself as any kind of Rambo, but I think it qualifies me as a modern day warrior with some experience in modern projectile weapons, as well as some in edged weapons.
Remember that if we are using the idea of a modern day "sword", we should keep in mind that over the thousands of years that swords have existed their role as a weapon has not always been primary. Spears, axes, bows and others had a place.....often depending on the "perceived" effectiveness of these weapons and cultural factors.
So in thinking modern, we are within our rights to relegate the use of our "modern sword" to what our needs are at present.
This "sword" should be capable of playing a role where projectile weapons can't, or when our projectile weapons have failed. Or as a tool for prying, digging, hammering. It should also have balance, weight and size in accordance with the modern day warrior's need. If he is to be out in the field carrying every possession for weeks and months on end that might necessitate one kind of "sword". If he will be inserted for a few hours to accomplish mission with a quick exfil it might be a different designed "sword".
So...................back to titanium in our "modern sword". We already have it. Look up MISSION KNIVES. Designed for the Navy SEALS, and in current use by many spec ops forces, Mission's MPK titanium knife has a 12" titanium blade heat treated.....yes, heat treated to a Rockwell of 45-47. Here is an excerpt from their webpage on the MPK-Ti:
"The MPK is made from a high strength beta titanium alloy which has the disadvantage of being difficult to grind and machine, and higher in cost when compared to Ti-6Al-4V. Wear resistance, however, is superior and the alloy can be hardened to Rc 44-46 while maintaining usable ductility. At this level, edge retention is good. Furthermore, corrosion will not dull the edge."
Notice that Mission does not tell you what metal(s) it is using in its proprietary titanium alloy.
So now you will tell me that this is a knife, not a sword. Ok, I'll grant that you are correct. But perhaps YOUR need as a warrior is slightly different, and you need an 18" blade. Sword, right? Where do we define a knife ends and a sword begins?
--The modern warrior doesnt have to worry that his magnetic "sword" will set off any mines....
--When he climbs over the stern of a ship dripping wet, and then an hr later throws all his wet gear into a conex to be flown halfway around the world to his next assignment he doesnt worry that it will RUST.
Currently in use by the following agencies.......and more not listed.....
COMNAVSPECWARCOM COMNAVSPECWARGRU-1 (West Coast SEAL Teams and SDV) COMNAVSPECWARGRU-2 (East Coast SEAL Teams) NAVSPECWARDEVGRU NAVEODTECHCTR NAVEODFLTLAU NAVEOD Mobile Units USMC MARCORSYSCOM USMC FORCE RECON USMC EOD groups USAF EOD groups US Army Special Operations US Army Special Forces US Army EOD groups US Department of State US Customs Department US Coast Guard FBI BATF State & Local Police Force: Divers and Recovery Teams Bomb Technicians SWAT Teams
If anyone is in the Delaware area I'll be happy to show you mine.
In the meantime....to all of you who say, "it has to be steel", or "titanium is not suitable for a blade"...............I disagree.
To my friend who wants to make a titanium sword.....DO IT. Keep in mind scrap titanium might not be the ultimate material. Design your sword with its PURPOSE defined carefully by its size, shape, weight, balance.......
I think you'll be happy you did it. And if you arent, theres always redesign #2, and then #3....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2008 15:00:07 GMT
P.S. - Hammerhand.......your thinking is right on target. Always search for the better mousetrap. Many inventions for example have been thought up by people in completely different fields from the one their invention works in. They were able to "think outside the box"....to move away from the paradigms that often limit our thoughts.
Take an imaginary or even historical battle involving swords and heavy armor. Imagine you were the one with the latest "cutting edge" sword (ok, pun intended). Even compared to the best swords on the field.....yours is several inches longer for the same weight.....giving you more reach and moment.....an advantage.
Or a battle with light or no armor, and your sword is not only a couple of inches longer, but it is also lighter.....allowing you to swing it faster than your oponents and for a longer time.
Maybe not perfectly thought out.....but you get the idea. With careful thought maybe you will be the one in conjunction with MISSION's special titanium alloy.....or your own for that matter.....to come up with the next killer sword. The one that will have us all grinning ear to ear.
;D
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