Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 1:11:55 GMT
Swords were used for many thousands of years and in terms of design most everything worthwhile was understood and done by smiths from antiquity up till the early 20th century. One of the areas where there has been a lot of room for improvement is in materials but aside from higher quality steel it has been sort of unclear what exactly we should be doing with modern materials. I have a few ideas and thought I'd throw them out there.
Titanium, at least in alloyed form, is an obvious pick in high performance modern materials. 6AL-4V ELI may very well have the hardness and shock resistance necessary to make a good sword blade. If anybody has the money to do some experiments before I get around to it I'd love to hear your findings.
Outside of the blade I think there is a good application for titanium in a sword and the less expensive non-ELI variety of 6AL-4V should be perfectly adequate... that use is in the cross. It is advantageous to have a large portion of the sword's over all weight located in the hand. There's only so much you can do with the blade before that starts seriously affecting its performance but with titanium you could lose nearly 40% of the weight of the guard and if you're using a simple, conservative cross it could be very light indeed. You should be able to achieve some remarkable harmonics and handling due to the advantage in mass distribution. I envision the difference in weight being made up for in a beefier tang.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 13:02:16 GMT
Why is titanium the "obvious pick"??~?!? Does titanium posses superior edge holding or spring? Do you have any firsthand expierience with any form of titanium?
I don't know why it keeps coming up but titanium seems to have the same hype around it as the damn katana, as some super material. It is just not suitable for a blade, you are on the right track for fittings however but that's it. the ultimate material for a sword blade is
STEEL.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 13:48:40 GMT
I have to agree with Sam here, you should look for previous threads on titanium on these forums as it has been discussed before, along with depleted uranium, diamond, glass, obsidian etc..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 19:57:25 GMT
Why is titanium the "obvious pick"??~?!? Does titanium posses superior edge holding or spring? Do you have any firsthand expierience with any form of titanium? Yes. I own a lot of 6AL-4V and some Grade 2. I make things out of it and I own things made out of it. I've recently been doing some ballistic testing on 6AL-4V/ELI the results of which have greatly impressed me. You do give up something in terms of hardness but since I'm not commonly cutting other metals with a sword I'm not very concerned with that. What I am interested in is evaluating the cutting performance of a much lighter but potentially much higher velocity blade. I also feel it could make one heck of a small sword. For some mostly because it sounds cool. For others because it is able to replace steel at a 1:1 ratio in many applications for a nearly 40% reduction in weight and the metal possesses great resistance to corrosion. Steel is an incredible metal, I'm a fan, but there are other very interesting materials that are just now being developed that offer some interesting possibilities if you're into experimentation. The fittings are my primary interest in titanium for sword applications. I've got two pieces of scrap selected for a cross and pommel. I'm trying to identify a sword blade I'm interested in that has a fairly massive tang that is reasonably affordable so I can try retrofitting it with the titanium components when time and money allow. The alternative I see is fabricating a heavier grip if I can't find a beefier tang but I'd rather have that weight doing something functional like reinforcing the tang. I do have a sword on order that has a compression fit hilt so I know sooner or later it will get loose. When it does I might try the alternative on it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 23:09:04 GMT
Yes. I own a lot of 6AL-4V and some Grade 2. I make things out of it and I own things made out of it. I've recently been doing some ballistic testing on 6AL-4V/ELI the results of which have greatly impressed me. You do give up something in terms of hardness but since I'm not commonly cutting other metals with a sword I'm not very concerned with that. What I am interested in is evaluating the cutting performance of a much lighter but potentially much higher velocity blade. I also feel it could make one heck of a small sword. For some mostly because it sounds cool. For others because it is able to replace steel at a 1:1 ratio in many applications for a nearly 40% reduction in weight and the metal possesses great resistance to corrosion. Steel is an incredible metal, I'm a fan, but there are other very interesting materials that are just now being developed that offer some interesting possibilities if you're into experimentation. The fittings are my primary interest in titanium for sword applications. I've got two pieces of scrap selected for a cross and pommel. I'm trying to identify a sword blade I'm interested in that has a fairly massive tang that is reasonably affordable so I can try retrofitting it with the titanium components when time and money allow. The alternative I see is fabricating a heavier grip if I can't find a beefier tang but I'd rather have that weight doing something functional like reinforcing the tang. I do have a sword on order that has a compression fit hilt so I know sooner or later it will get loose. When it does I might try the alternative on it. Fittings are the ONLY primary interest as far as titanium goes in the blade world. Uber lightness is not always a factor that is a good thing when it comes to blades. Everyone seems to forget the main thing that blades do, CUT, titanium doesn't hold an edge, or more accurately doesn't hold a candle compared to steel's edge holding capabilities. So you would end up with a super light (ruddy for cutting any targets, where you need atleast some weight behind the blade) corrosion resistant shiny, crappy dull show sword, like a super light stainless wallhanger that is VERY expensive hehe. I don't understand your desire for an overly beefy tang, it get's to a point where it would just be overkill, and negate the use of lighter materials for fittings anyway. What sword do you have on order that has a compression fit, I have not seen that certain attribute advertised.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 0:47:45 GMT
Uber lightness is not always a factor that is a good thing when it comes to blades. Sure, but for certain sorts of targets light and fast is a good thing. Think about a machete for instance or the aforementioned small sword. With that and this comment in mind, I think you're overlooking a lot of possibilities in the area of cross section. You can only take things so far with steel before weight, inertia and leverage start working against you. That path is already well traveled, well mapped, which is why there has been many excellent steel swords over the ages. Titanium's potentials haven't even really been explored except for a few knives that don't really push the material's properties too hard since they are primarily emphasizing corrosion resistance and it's non-magnetic property. You may not be interested in experimentation with this metal but I am and many others are. It's a totally different field of endeavor than steel swords, just like stone, copper or ceramic blades are an entirely different field of study from steel knives. The point isn't to yield some imagined "ultimate" because you can only really define "ultimate" in relation to a specific set of parameters and even then "ultimate" is a theoretical goal, not an actual destination. The purpose is to explore the possibilities and have some fun shaping metal and cutting stuff in the process. Just to add a different perspective to the discussion it should be noted that titanium does compare to iron and bronze, two metals that were used for a very long time in the making of swords. Additionally some blades mainly thrust, like the small sword. I'm not arguing that titanium is a better blade metal than steel, just that it is a different metal with its own distinct and interesting properties. What I'm interested in is the effect it would have on mass distribution in the sword. The purpose of titanium fittings wouldn't be just to lower the overall weight of the sword but to allow you to allocate a larger portion of the same or similar overall weight to what you actually hold in your hand, the point of rotation. I would rather add that weight in the tang where it would add strength than simply use a heavier grip that doesn't really do anything else. I also don't see why weight should be allocated to the cross if it is at least in part avoidable with no meaningful loss of functionality. In terms of simple reduction in overall weight titanium does have a lot to offer the world of complex hilts. Another potential application would be to make up the difference in weight by reinforcing the blade but the gains here would likely be minimal since the difference in weight between a conservative guard made of titanium versus steel would correspond to only a proportionally small amount of steel added along the blade's length and the more steel you add toward the end of the blade the more leverage and inertia will work against you anyway. Working backwards from that idea a titanium guard probably would slightly enhance the handling of swords that deliberately put a lot of mass into the blade. My sword lexicon isn't up to date so please give me the correct terminology if you have it but that is in fact the way most modern manufactured swords are assembled. The cross slips on over the tang and is held in place against the shoulder by the grip which is compressed(hence my term "compression fit") against the cross by a pommel or nut. It is a technique that apparently has been in use at least since the Renaissance.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 1:20:48 GMT
It would just be another use of just another exotic material (as far as swords go). Anything that could be done for light weight could be done with steel, so it would be personal preference to use such an awesome material. The mass distribution would be unusual, remember it is the job of the pommel and guard to balance the sword, so to get the same weight you would have to make the same parts but HUGE compared to those in steel. The weight of the fittings is what effects the harmonics changing the vibration points and stuff.
What do you mean by "Another potential application would be to make up the difference in weight by reinforcing the blade" Reinforce the blade how?
By compression fit you are correct, I thought you might have meant press fit where the fittings are fitted so tight they have to be rpessed or pounded on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 2:13:33 GMT
The mass distribution would be unusual, remember it is the job of the pommel and guard to balance the sword, so to get the same weight you would have to make the same parts but HUGE compared to those in steel. The weight of the fittings is what effects the harmonics changing the vibration points and stuff. As I've said before I've been out of the sword scene for a number of years now and I'm just getting back into it so a lot of my terminology is obsolete or incorrect. What I've been trying to convey is actually called polar moment. Somebody described it in another thread and I recognized it immediately I just hadn't really known what to call it. Anyway here's an article from Tinker that explains a little better the effect I'm trying to achieve. forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=51519 So as you can see from the article the gist of it is to use the tang or grip to do most of the balancing of the sword in order to redistribute mass to the point of rotation to lower the polar moment. This has actually been done before on some ancient Greek bronze swords which is where I first became aware of it. Anyway at that point the pommel doesn't have to be nearly as large as it would be on an all steel sword since it is mostly there for fine tuning the balance and/or allowing for a more secure grip. The same thing with the guard, you aren't relying on it for balance so deliberately having a lighter guard is a good thing. Just another possible way of redistributing weight that would have been allocated to the guard. Instead of placing it within the point of rotation to lower the polar moment it could potentially be added to the blade in the form of more steel and retain the same polar moment. Obviously one of the trade offs in sword design is that blade needs to be carefully tapered distally and in profile for proper weight, balance and harmonics. This often means that more metal needs to be removed than might be strictly necessary just to get good cutting performance or durability. By making the guard lighter you could in theory make the blade slightly heavier and retain similar handling characteristics. In practice I think the amount of weight saved in the guard probably wouldn't be sufficient to noticeably improve durability in the blade and the amount of steel you would have to add to boost durability would result in a higher polar moment for the sword. Albion does that and I have heard that was common on Medieval swords. It's definitely something I'd like to experiment with also because with compression fit hilts the cross will come loose with use and I find rattly swords to be very irritating. That's actually part of the reason I chose to order the sword I did, I wanted to experiment with converting a compression fit hilt assembly to one more like what Albion does by raising the shoulder slightly in such a way as to leave the tang a bit wider near the shoulder so it will engage the slot in the cross tightly. If that made sense at all... it'd be a lot easier to show than for me to tell about it. Anyway I'd probably have to shim it too since the new tang area created by raising the shoulder will likely inherit some cross section taper from the blade. Since the entire hilt assembly will be moving up about 3/8 of an inch it will also allow the pommel to be drilled through, threaded on and peened in place. Depending on how this works out in practice it could be a useful upgrade to off the shelf sub-$300 swords that brings them a little closer to the quality of construction found in the best swords. Speaking of which, the sword I'm getting is a Darksword 11th Century Norman. They are reputed to be durable but have a high polar moment and a compression fit hilt with threaded on pommel. Those are actually good features for the experiments I want to do. The major down side is their tangs are rather more narrow than I would prefer for the polar moment experiment so I'll have to make up the difference by simply adding a heavier grip. I'm thinking if I make a grip wrapped with some heavy gauge wire it should make up the desired weight. One major plus side is the guard does appear to be fairly massive so if I cut the titanium for this sword it should have a fairly noticeable impact.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 14:48:37 GMT
Your experimentation then, according to Tinker's article, will not deal with anything having to do with fittings, it will have to do with distal tapering the blade. the only time he mentions fittings is when he says that because the one blade of the two identical weighted swords had distal taper meant that it did not need as much weight/bigger fittings to compensate. Soyou will have to experiment with distal taper on the blade you are buying, not the fittings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 19:13:28 GMT
That's the point, in an all steel sword you have to either gain or lose metal to redistribute weight. I'm talking about a new method of mass distribution allowed for by the properties of modern materials. Tapering isn't magic it's just one way to move metal, and therefore weight, around. The goal is simply to put a greater portion of the over all weight on the point of rotation. Angus Trim is doing a very similar thing on his nearly guardless line of tactical swords. Diminutive guards weigh less so they also remove weight from beyond the point of rotation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 7:48:31 GMT
I thought this was a rather interesting thread but I wanted to put in a thought. If the main idea is to save weight, Wouldn't it be better to use a heavy(steel) pommel in combination with a light (titanium) guard. That is instead of a heavy handle or tang. Since less overall weight would be necessary to balance the sword because the pommel is farther from the POB and thus has more leverage. Couldn't you achieve the same handling characteristics with less weight that way?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 8:52:05 GMT
To just get a similar POB/handling without regard to the purpose of a guard I can't fault your reasoning there.
For a guard that would need to see use, titanium probably wouldn't be as good as iron (e.g. going from Young's modulus from wikipedia)... but it seems would be comparable to bronze... might need a large volume of it though? (http://swordforum.com/metallurgy/titanium.html) For a purely decorative guard or just to buttress the hand it probably could do the job... but why not just use aluminium?
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Aug 21, 2008 9:39:19 GMT
If I understand hammerhand correctly, I could see some nice benefits from using lightweight materials for hilt components. It would allow for a much beefier tang ala Gus Trim's Tactical Line swords. The maker could build the raw blade much closer to final handling specs, then play with various hilt fittings to refine the handling characteristics while keeping the effect on the polar mass smaller. That might produce a faster handling sword that would be a bit easier for the bladesmith to fine tune for performance.
It sounds like an interesting concept to me. At least it could be interesting to experiment with.
|
|
|
Post by brotherbanzai on Aug 21, 2008 14:36:13 GMT
Seems like the major changes you could make would be eliminating distal taper and making the tang larger. I would agree with ncavin, in that there wouldn't be much point to a lightweight pommel since the pommel's purpose is to counterbalance the blade.
I don't know much about these exotic materials but I would be curious about how they compare with steel as far as toughness and flexibility. When I was experimenting with different HDPE plastics for my wasters I tried one that was much harder than what I had been using and though it had good specs on paper the wasters made with it snapped like twigs under light use.
I applaud hammerhand's explorations against the grain, but suspect that if any of these exotic materials could outperform steel in a sword blade, someone would already be making them.
Hammerhand's original post suggests using advanced materials specifically in the guard which seems pretty reasonable. A strong, lightweight guard that gives the hand plenty of protection isn't a bad idea.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 20:08:38 GMT
Grade 2 titanium would be marginal imo but 6AL-4V hits C 36 on the Rockwell scale. To put that in perspective most 4130 ordnance steel receivers in firearms are hardened to the mid 30's. While it isn't as hard as a blade you're not going to cut through a titanium guard.
Ultimate Tensile Strength, PSI138,000 Yield Strength, psi 128,000 Elongation 14%
Grade 2 titanium's strength stats are less than half of 6AL-4V's though it has an elongation of 20%.
If you look at "aircraft grade aluminum," 7075 which really is a good metal for many purposes and a true giant among aluminum alloys you get a UTS of 83,000 and yield strength of 73,000. It is of course relatively soft, B87 on the Rockwell scale.
As a yard stick a common mild steel, 1018, has a UTS of 63,800 and a yield strength of 53,700 with a Rockwell hardness of B71, less than 7075 aluminum.
I don't believe many or any makers of steel guards and pommels are heat treating them and though I do suspect they are most often made of medium or high carbon steel there is no reason to believe they would better resist a sword cut than 6AL-4V. Keep in mind that 7075 aluminum and 1018 mild steel don't have near the tensile or yield strength of 6AL-4V and would both rate under 10 on the Rockwell C scale. While you could certainly bugger up a mild steel guard pretty good you'd be unlikely to be able to actually break or cleave through it and 6AL-4V far exceeds mild steel. And I'm talking about a deliberate cut against the guard under ideal conditions, not something that the guard would even actually encounter in real combat. Albion for instance doesn't say what steel they make theirs from and doesn't mention any heat treating in their "How Albion Sword Are Made" article, they only show them as being cast. Darksword says they use CK55.
Now on the matter of balancing the sword and especially pommels you have to throw away the paradigms of all steel sword construction, that's the whole point of this thread. The cross and pommel would no longer take the lead in balancing the sword, the tang would. Again, this is to place as much of the overall weight of the sword as is reasonable in the grip, the point of rotation, to produce a sword of lower polar moment. I would still want a large pommel to help create a secure grip but much of the weight would no longer be necessary so using a titanium pommel on a sword with a titanium guard would make sense to me.
I was looking at an Irish ring pommeled sword the other day and it occurred to me that they may have been attempting the same sort of mass distribution I'm talking about only using the materials they had available to them. The ring would obviously be lighter in weight than a solid pommel of similar diameter and thickness. I don't know if they were doing it or not but if they were making up for that difference in weight by adding it to the grip or tang the Irish ring pommel may well have been an attempt at lowering the polar moment of the sword. As I noted previously the general concept seems to have been understood in the past, the ancient Greeks were making bronze swords that were very thick in the tang. It's even possible that this may be the reason behind the small guards on Viking age swords or even most ancient and Dark Age swords, a smaller steel guard is lighter than a large one and therefore shifts a greater portion of the over all weight of the sword back into the grip. I'm not very familiar with Japanese swords but tsuba do look small and light to me as well which would seem to at least provide the opportunity of making use of this principle. I do believe they have a lot of handle compared to the blade at least by European standards but I've also heard that katanas have short tangs.
I think titanium is subject to something a backlash due to a number of factors such as novices believing that titanium outmatches steel in every respect even though they don't know the actual properties of most or even any steel or titanium alloys. Experience with Grade 2 might have something to do with it to and finally I think trying to draw a direct comparison to a steel blade is at the heart of it. A titanium blade would be in the same general class as bronze or iron swords but could quite possibly dominate there. While this isn't the main focus of this thread I do believe it may have a place in the modern world because even if you use weapons in life and death combat you just won't be likely to ever encounter anyone wielding a steel sword. Against flesh and bone, kevlar and vegetation a titanium blade should do as well as any while offering some interesting metal-specific properties.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 22:59:02 GMT
I'm probably missing some of the meaning behind the phrase "lower poler moment" but I still don't see how a heavy handle or tang would be better then a heavy pommel for balancing the sword. Less overall mass would need to be added to the pommel than would need to be added to the tang or handle in order to balance the blade. So if you used the pommel to do most of the balancing then you'd need less overall weight making the sword lighter. Right? I just feel like I'm missing something here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 0:43:14 GMT
Mild steel against flesh and bone kevlar and vegetation would do just the same, hammerhand, you just trying to get rid of a bunch of that Ti hehe? ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 2:37:39 GMT
Its an interesting topic, and i would be willing to bet if someone hasn't already made a sword from titanium, that there is probably someone on the case as we speak. That being said, isn't titanium pretty expensive?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 2:41:51 GMT
I'm probably missing some of the meaning behind the phrase "lower poler moment" but I still don't see how a heavy handle or tang would be better then a heavy pommel for balancing the sword. Less overall mass would need to be added to the pommel than would need to be added to the tang or handle in order to balance the blade. So if you used the pommel to do most of the balancing then you'd need less overall weight making the sword lighter. Right? I just feel like I'm missing something here. That's because the point isn't to make the sword lighter, it's to redistribute the same weight. In this case it isn't how much it weighs that matters, it's where along its length that weight is concentrated that is important. Ideally we aren't altering the weight of the theoretical sword at all. I can see how it can be a bit confusing about the pommel. As you said it would likely take less overall weight to use the pommel to adjust the point of balance of the sword than balancing primarily by adding weight to the grip or tang. The trick is that point of balance and polar moment, while related, aren't the same thing exactly. The reason you'd need less weight in the pommel than in the grip to achieve the balance is because the pommel is located further from the point of rotation. While that works for you in terms of overall weight it works against you in terms of low polar moment. That same leverage the pommel has against the weight of the blade is also leverage against the acceleration of the sword. What I'm talking about doesn't stop there though because we're not just taking weight from the pommel. We're taking it from the guard too and we're moving that weight to the center of rotation, so we're gaining leverage against the weight of the blade that way while simultaneously reducing the sword's tendency to be blade heavy just because we now have less weight in front of the grip. It's a compound effect that should more than make up for the loss of leverage by not relying on the pommel to balance the sword.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 3:00:33 GMT
I've read this thread from beginning to end, and all I see it the overcomplication of the blade.
A Titanium blade would be lighter. In order to remain the same weight as an average sword, and redistrubute weight, there would be TOO MUCH BLADE. Either the widge or thickness would dreadfully hinder the cutting ability. The lightness would have to be combatted with mass, which means more matter, which means more displacement. It might dry handle like a real sword, but it won't cut for crap.
The smallsword idea is possible. Titanium can't hold a serviceable cutting edge, but smallswords rarely have one. I cannot speak for the material's ability to keep a sharp point or how flexable it is, but I guess the mass to weight ratio would make a smallsword blade handle nearly like a modern sport foil. This isn't necessarily better, though.
|
|