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Post by howler on Aug 16, 2021 8:16:23 GMT
Thanks for your vote of confidence in me. I greatly appreciate it. People like you who are directly in my life that I have been blessed with are one of the reasons that I gave up on giving up. I almost demanded to my POs to send me back. They and the detective who arrested me were against it and even said that of all the ones they know, I have the best chance of making it. I am grateful for you who encourage me so. I am late to the forum and off topic, but I could not let this go unaddressed: In the eyes of the Lutheran church, we tend tend to focus on the fact that "...all have fallen short of the glory of God." I am an Ohioan of Scots ancestry; one of my fore-father's sayings was, "Hang a thief when he's young, and he won't steal when he's old." I'm glad we don't judge that harshly anymore. In my own life, I can honestly say, as so many have, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Except in a few cases, where I did go, and paid a hefty 'effin fee. No real time, though. Christ, who even if you question his divinity was an astute observer of human psychology, was very clear on this point: To think is equivalent with to do. You wish a man dead, you have committed murder; you fantasize about a woman, you commit adultery. The problem with "society" judging criminals, is that frequently those very people are every bit as guilty--and perhaps worse, in that they refuse to acknowledge their failings--as the so-called "criminal". They hide behind the limitations of temporal law, perhaps even preach against lawlessness, but in regards to the Deity, they fall just as far. Worse, they focus on the minor lawlessness of minor citizens to distract attention away from fantastic evils committed by the "great ones". There is a line to be drawn, and "society" does have a dog in this fight. But too often, the "Rubicon" crossed is a serious crime only to the ruling government, and in many times and places wouldn't have been worth a second look. Kill a slave in 12 A.D. Rome? Merely reducing inventory. Criticize the Emperor? Its crucifixion for you! Heck, in 1966, having two rolled joints could get you a 15-year sentence in the South. I find it amazing that our society is as vengeful as it is: There is a seeming need to villify everyone who has ever been CAUGHT--as if most of us didn't shred the Commandments daily--and then never, ever let them back into the fold. There's a desperate need for a scapegoat--almost as if we're scared of being found out, ourselves... Sparkedtiger, only you know for certain. Recovery involves accepting responsibility and making amends. But despite "society"'s condemnation, true forgiveness and redemption is possible. Once upon a time, "Polite Society" wore wigs and face powder to conceal their syphilitic sores. Peace, and strength, be given unto you upon your journey. It is an interesting question, wondering if the thought be equivalent to the deed. I think it is the deed, otherwise most of humanity would be guilty of murder, but suppose the intensity and duration of the thought(context) would give different weight. I do know the Ten Commandments (original Hebrew said "murder" not "kill", as there is a difference with King James translation) don't mention "thinking" about murder, but literal murder. |
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Aug 16, 2021 13:10:24 GMT
Glendon, I thought one of the mods would have come by to point out the forum rules about discussing religion on here. It’s against the rules to talk about politics or religion. Technically your not discussing it yet but it does seem like preaching. Many on here are Christians and at least one minister. They have let that fact be known but don’t go further than that.
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Andy54Hawken
Member
Mine's a tale that can't be told. My freedom I hold dear.
Posts: 115
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Aug 16, 2021 14:53:29 GMT
While I have not used a AR15 for home defense...I have used various versions of the M16 series in combat...it worked well for me. That said....combat , even close quarter combat , like I experienced at times...can be vastly different than home defense.
In regards for home defense... I would suggest that one uses the firearm that they shoot the best with and or are most comfortable / familiar with.. As well with the appropriate ammunition loadings.
Also worth noting is that "defense" of any kind...should be made with far more thought than just what firearm should be used. The more options one has before the use of a firearm is called for , will make for a better outcome. Andy |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 16:00:00 GMT
While I have not used a AR15 for home defense...I have used various versions of the M16 series in combat...it worked well for me. That said....combat , even close quarter combat , like I experienced at times...can be vastly different than home defense.
In regards for home defense... I would suggest that one uses the firearm that they shoot the best with and or are most comfortable / familiar with.. As well with the appropriate ammunition loadings.
Also worth noting is that "defense" of any kind...should be made with far more thought than just what firearm should be used. The more options one has before the use of a firearm is called for , will make for a better outcome. Andy With how this world is getting, I am thinking that it will not be long before defence mirrors actual combat. The loonies have almost taken control of the asylum. |
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Andy54Hawken
Member
Mine's a tale that can't be told. My freedom I hold dear.
Posts: 115
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Aug 16, 2021 16:15:08 GMT
I hope not in either case.
In any event I know myself , and remember various skills and lessons ,that have helped in the past.
I also have the willingness to do so again.
With that said...
May I never have to do so again
Andy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 16:20:00 GMT
I hope not in either case. In any event I know myself , and remember various skills and lessons ,that have helped in the past. I also have the willingness to do so again. With that said... May I never have to do so again Andy Agreed. I have never had to and I pray to never have to. What branch were you? |
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Andy54Hawken
Member
Mine's a tale that can't be told. My freedom I hold dear.
Posts: 115
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Aug 16, 2021 16:21:09 GMT
I served 8 years in the Army...mostly with LRRP / LRSD units and four combat tours.
Andy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 16:40:34 GMT
I did 8 years in the Army...mostly with LRRP / LRSD units and four combat tours. Andy Thank you for your service. I greatly appreciate it. I tried the Army back in 1992. It just did not work out. My plan was to do four years while I get my degree and then go to OCS and retire as a major or lieutenant colonel. I did not make it past AIT due to failure to adapt. The military, as it turned out, was not for me. |
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Andy54Hawken
Member
Mine's a tale that can't be told. My freedom I hold dear.
Posts: 115
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Aug 16, 2021 16:51:07 GMT
You are very welcome...it was my pleasure to serve...mostly..LOL.
The military has its own "ways and means" so to speak...and even within the same branch , different units , bases and even commanders can set their own tone or feel on those who are there or under them.
In any event thank you for the recognition.
Andy
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Post by glendon on Aug 16, 2021 22:19:30 GMT
Glendon, I thought one of the mods would have come by to point out the forum rules about discussing religion on here. It’s against the rules to talk about politics or religion. Technically your not discussing it yet but it does seem like preaching. Many on here are Christians and at least one minister. They have let that fact be known but don’t go further than that. It seems swords and guns and politics and religion have always gone together, if not before the act, then certainly after: It should be mentioned by competent trainers that the very first thing a man must do before he chooses his "best home-defense weapon" is to ascertain whether or not he can live with the ramifications of even its successful and lawful deployment; such introspection is certainly within the purview of religious thought, not to mention the politics of following the law (judged by 12, carried by 6, that sort of thing). Any discussion of weapons that do not at least nod toward their actual long-lasting effect is, to my mind, puerile. Indeed, is precisely the politics of lawbreaking and weapon ownership which led me to post: I was trying to highlight the inconstancy of the notion of "justice" using both an historical and a religious context, for the encouragement of someone who obviously is struggling with the realities of falling afoul of the law. My points were thus: Not all punishments for infractions are necessarily just, even in this enlightened age; Crime is culturally defined, and anything but stable and precise; and, The distinction between "criminal" and "law-abiding citizen" so rigidly applied by so many in this country is not necessarily shared by all cultures and philosophies. I apologize if I have infracted the rules. |
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Aug 16, 2021 22:48:04 GMT
Glendon, I thought one of the mods would have come by to point out the forum rules about discussing religion on here. It’s against the rules to talk about politics or religion. Technically your not discussing it yet but it does seem like preaching. Many on here are Christians and at least one minister. They have let that fact be known but don’t go further than that. It seems swords and guns and politics and religion have always gone together, if not before the act, then certainly after: It should be mentioned by competent trainers that the very first thing a man must do before he chooses his "best home-defense weapon" is to ascertain whether or not he can live with the ramifications of even its successful and lawful deployment; such introspection is certainly within the purview of religious thought, not to mention the politics of following the law (judged by 12, carried by 6, that sort of thing). Any discussion of weapons that do not at least nod toward their actual long-lasting effect is, to my mind, puerile. Indeed, is precisely the politics of lawbreaking and weapon ownership which led me to post: I was trying to highlight the inconstancy of the notion of "justice" using both an historical and a religious context, for the encouragement of someone who obviously is struggling with the realities of falling afoul of the law. My points were thus: Not all punishments for infractions are necessarily just, even in this enlightened age; Crime is culturally defined, and anything but stable and precise; and, The distinction between "criminal" and "law-abiding citizen" so rigidly applied by so many in this country is not necessarily shared by all cultures and philosophies. I apologize if I have infracted the rules. Well, I can say you are very articulate. And yes, all you said about it being tied together is true. But the founder of this forum wrote out very well thought out rules for it. It would seem you didn’t read them. I suggest you do and you will see very clearly no discussion of politics or religion. But threads do go in those directions sometimes and the mods step in with warnings first then various degrees of banning. Was just trying to let you know. |
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Post by sonofarwyn on Aug 17, 2021 5:59:30 GMT
So, this has kept civil, well written, and articulate. Thank you all for that. However, this has veered off topic and strayed into areas that the owner laid out as no gos. So, in the spirit of the discussion shown so far, drop those parts of the discussion please.
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Aug 17, 2021 9:33:45 GMT
So, this has kept civil, well written, and articulate. Thank you all for that. However, this has veered off topic and strayed into areas that the owner laid out as no gos. So, in the spirit of the discussion shown so far, drop those parts if the discussion please. . Thank you. |
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
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Post by Greg E on Sept 5, 2021 18:32:22 GMT
Where I live and the firing lanes I would encounter in my house, an AR may bring a bit of danger to my neighbors when the rounds over-penetrate the side of my house using the ammo I have accumulated.
I have chosen on my shotgun and shells that would more than likely not go through 2 houses. When the wife is not at home, I will take my shotgun and maneuver through the house, taking note of firing positions and egress routes. You look at your house differently when you do this.
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tera
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Post by tera on Sept 5, 2021 21:42:10 GMT
First, depending on load, I don't disagree with shotguns for home defense where appropriate. No disrespect of that choice intended here. However, the 5.56 NATO/.223 Rem cartridge produces a fast but light projectile that rapidly loses energy when hitting structure. Ball will start to tumble, hollow points mushroom, etc. Decades ago, at this point, the FBI did a ballistics study on 9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP, and 5.56 NATO. In short, it turned out that the light, fast 5.56 was less likely to over penetrate structure than any of the pistol calibers. It is no accident that almost all law enforcement agencies switched to the AR-15 platform instead of the venerable MP5 or the short lived MP5/10. It sounds strange to say it, but the AR-15 is in such common use for FBI/SWAT units precisely because it is less likely to kill or injure an unintended individual on the other side of a wall. Here is an article making reference to the studies: gripknife.com/blog/why-high-powered-556-nato223-ar15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/Now, a lot has changed in projectile design since the original study, but it remains true that 5.56 is a popular LEO choice as a responsible round for room-clearing. I think right now the AR-15 has such a stigma against it many people won't use it for fear of hoe a prosecutor will play on the fears of the jury. I am not a lawyer, consult legal counsel, read the FBI study yourself, read updated studies, etc. |
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Post by howler on Sept 5, 2021 21:58:37 GMT
First, depending on load, I don't disagree with shotguns for home defense where appropriate. No disrespect of that choice intended here. However, the 5.56 NATO/.223 Rem cartridge produces a fast but light projectile that rapidly loses energy when hitting structure. Ball will start to tumble, hollow points mushroom, etc. Decades ago, at this point, the FBI did a ballistics study on 9mm, 10mm, .45 ACP, and 5.56 NATO. In short, it turned out that the light, fast 5.56 was less likely to over penetrate structure than any of the pistol calibers. It is no accident that almost all law enforcement agencies switched to the AR-15 platform instead of the venerable MP5 or the short lived MP5/10. It sounds strange to say it, but the AR-15 is in such common use for FBI/SWAT units precisely because it is less likely to kill or injure an unintended individual on the other side of a wall. Here is an article making reference to the studies: gripknife.com/blog/why-high-powered-556-nato223-ar15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/Now, a lot has changed in projectile design since the original study, but it remains true that 5.56 is a popular LEO choice as a responsible round for room-clearing. I think right now the AR-15 has such a stigma against it many people won't use it for fear of hoe a prosecutor will play on the fears of the jury. I am not a lawyer, consult legal counsel, read the FBI study yourself, read updated studies, etc.Agreed. With the modern selections available today, you can use rounds (hollow, polymer, whatever) of .556 that penetrate in any way you wish. The effect is devastating but with accuracy & recoil control. This is why SWAT/FBI/law enforcement use it. And if the fight, for some reason, moves outdoors, the AR is supreme. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2021 23:42:58 GMT
I do feel that an AR15 is a viable home defence weapon. In fact, I recently remembered reading several articles some years ago (at least twenty) where self defence experts had said that the purpose for the pistol is to fight your way to or as a back up for the rifle. Just saying.
That being said, a well cared for M60 would be nice for home protection. 😹😹😹😹
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