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Post by Sir Thorfinn on May 9, 2020 19:49:46 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 10, 2020 7:46:29 GMT
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on May 10, 2020 15:39:48 GMT
Yes! And there is great data and ideas...dunno how much of the use speculation is good, but it's plausible.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 10, 2020 21:23:01 GMT
When I was playing in the SCA, I'd usually fight with a winged spear. The wings have their uses in battle. Engage and push on the opponent's weapon, hook their shield, etc. Shield hooking will displace centre-grip shields a lot, vs strapped shields as usual in the SCA (but strapped shields offer their own nice things, like the shield user resisting the hook so you change direction from a pull into a thrust, and they help pull it into their own face).
I don't think hunting-style toggles would be so useful in battle. But things like Japanese hadome, "parrying bars" on spears, are similar. Not so much used for parrying as for engaging, trapping, and manipulating an opponent's spear.
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Post by Tomt24 on May 14, 2020 11:09:54 GMT
Are there any decent 11th century winged spear replicas off the shelf available?
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 14, 2020 12:24:33 GMT
I used to be a big fan of lugs on spears, but nowadays view them as inefficient feature creep. Now I prefer a spear as light and agile as is practical.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on May 14, 2020 14:14:43 GMT
Are there any decent 11th century winged spear replicas off the shelf available? Yes, all over the place! Start at Kult of Athena. Windlass has a few. Arms and Armor has about anything you'd want, just more expensive. But my question...11th century *WHERE*? I mean, Europe, China, the steppes of Mongolia...Japan...the Americas...sooo many choices.
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Post by Tomt24 on May 14, 2020 15:56:28 GMT
I used to be a big fan of lugs on spears, but nowadays view them as inefficient feature creep. Now I prefer a spear as light and agile as is practical.
Makes sense too. Maybe the lugs are at least partly some stylistic feature. There are several kite shields with a shield boss aswell.
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Post by Tomt24 on May 14, 2020 15:57:46 GMT
Are there any decent 11th century winged spear replicas off the shelf available? Yes, all over the place! Start at Kult of Athena. Windlass has a few. Arms and Armor has about anything you'd want, just more expensive. But my question...11th century *WHERE*? I mean, Europe, China, the steppes of Mongolia...Japan...the Americas...sooo many choices.
Sorry, meant first crusade and Hastings are and timeframe. Already have a WTB thread for the A&A. Just curious if there are some similiar options, especially with lugs.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 20, 2020 10:15:34 GMT
I used to be a big fan of lugs on spears, but nowadays view them as inefficient feature creep. Now I prefer a spear as light and agile as is practical. Light and agile is excellent when the main thing you do with your spear is carry it around. Also useful when fighting against short weapons. Not so good when fighting against other spears, because "light and agile" means, on average, "short". If you have a light and agile 7' spear and they have a 10' spear, you can be in plenty of trouble. This is where wings can be very useful. They can let you engage and trap your opponent's longer spear, so that you can close and hit them without getting hit yourself. Not useful on very long spears, or on one-handed spears, since you then don't have the leverage to use wings well.
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Post by demented on May 20, 2020 12:32:57 GMT
I used to think lugs were just for fashion but there are historical records of guys being ran threw and working there way up the shaft then decapitating the spearman. There are more than a few examples actually Mat Easton talks a little bit about it in these videos. And still to this day people who use spears to hunt boar make sure they have the lugs ,not just to pin the animal but to keep it from running up the spear...its very practical. I would definitly go with a winged spear. I know boar and hunting spears are different beasts than those meant for combat but the same idea applies in terms of lugs,imo. They also have use in redirecting weapons or shields to create openings.
Just my two cents.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on May 20, 2020 13:08:31 GMT
A thought... For a hunting spear (ONLY)...why arent the lugs set at a 90 degree line with the blade? I would think if you make a stab, which leaves a puncture like a line, you'd want the lugs to hang up in flesh. And with them in line with the blade, I'd think there'd be a chance the lugs would slide into the wound or clean thru.
Just a thought.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 20, 2020 14:41:22 GMT
I used to be a big fan of lugs on spears, but nowadays view them as inefficient feature creep. Now I prefer a spear as light and agile as is practical. Light and agile is excellent when the main thing you do with your spear is carry it around. Also useful when fighting against short weapons. Not so good when fighting against other spears, because "light and agile" means, on average, "short". If you have a light and agile 7' spear and they have a 10' spear, you can be in plenty of trouble. This is where wings can be very useful. They can let you engage and trap your opponent's longer spear, so that you can close and hit them without getting hit yourself. Not useful on very long spears, or on one-handed spears, since you then don't have the leverage to use wings well. The qualifier "as is practical" is an important part of my statement. Whether it's on a 7 foot spear or a 10 foot spear, I've come to conclude that the additional speed and maneuverability provided by a minimalistic spearhead are more broadly useful than having unnecessary weight on the end of your spear in the form of lugs and/or a overlarge spear point (especially ones intended for hewing type cuts). Control of the spear point, and the ability to put it where you want quickly, are for more useful in combat than (maybe) having an opportunity to hook a shield or hack at an exposed limb (at the cost of a slower, clumsier spear).
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Post by demented on May 20, 2020 15:04:21 GMT
A thought... For a hunting spear (ONLY)...why arent the lugs set at a 90 degree line with the blade? I would think if you make a stab, which leaves a puncture like a line, you'd want the lugs to hang up in flesh. And with them in line with the blade, I'd think there'd be a chance the lugs would slide into the wound or clean thru. Just a thought. My guess is that you dont want to lose the spear so being able to recover it while still being able to keep distance is important. the lugs keep it from running threw the boar but not stuck in enough that you can't pull the spear head out. Some boars are well over 1,000lbs.
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Post by demented on May 20, 2020 15:23:56 GMT
Light and agile is excellent when the main thing you do with your spear is carry it around. Also useful when fighting against short weapons. Not so good when fighting against other spears, because "light and agile" means, on average, "short". If you have a light and agile 7' spear and they have a 10' spear, you can be in plenty of trouble. This is where wings can be very useful. They can let you engage and trap your opponent's longer spear, so that you can close and hit them without getting hit yourself. Not useful on very long spears, or on one-handed spears, since you then don't have the leverage to use wings well. The qualifier "as is practical" is an important part of my statement. Whether it's on a 7 foot spear or a 10 foot spear, I've come to conclude that the additional speed and maneuverability provided by a minimalistic spearhead are more broadly useful than having unnecessary weight on the end of your spear in the form of lugs and/or a overlarge spear point (especially ones intended for hewing type cuts). Control of the spear point, and the ability to put it where you want quickly, are for more useful in combat than (maybe) having an opportunity to hook a shield or hack at an exposed limb (at the cost of a slower, clumsier spear). Probably more of a preference thing. Fiore dei Liberi an Italian knight, mercenary and Master at arms seemed to like winged spears. www.armizare.org/armizare/the-weapons-of-armizare/minor-weapons/Not having to worry about the other guy pushing up the shaft and decapitate me is more of a thing for me. Also you can recover faster and use it to create openings. The weigttvis pretty insignificant in my opinion but it punctures better for me.
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Post by demented on May 20, 2020 15:47:39 GMT
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 20, 2020 15:59:45 GMT
The qualifier "as is practical" is an important part of my statement. Whether it's on a 7 foot spear or a 10 foot spear, I've come to conclude that the additional speed and maneuverability provided by a minimalistic spearhead are more broadly useful than having unnecessary weight on the end of your spear in the form of lugs and/or a overlarge spear point (especially ones intended for hewing type cuts). Control of the spear point, and the ability to put it where you want quickly, are for more useful in combat than (maybe) having an opportunity to hook a shield or hack at an exposed limb (at the cost of a slower, clumsier spear). Probably more of a preference thing. Fiore dei Liberi an Italian knight, mercenary and Master at arms seemed to like winged spears. www.armizare.org/armizare/the-weapons-of-armizare/minor-weapons/Not having to worry about the other guy pushing up the shaft and decapitate me is more of a thing for me. Also you can recover faster and use it to create openings. The weigttvis pretty insignificant in my opinion but it punctures better for me. It's important to keep in mind that the longer the spear, the more significant the weight of the spearhead becomes. Also, I have found that the mass of the spear haft (linearly accelerated) is sufficient for penetrating most targets. The spearhead really just needs to be hard, durable, and have an optimal profile for penetrating the intended target. I don't think over-penetration against a human target with a spear is much of a danger unless you are bracing to receive a charge, and in that case you would be prepared to discard the spear and fight on with a sidearm. I also think the movie trope of a transfixed warrior pulling his way up the spear to kill the wielder is usually pretty silly. It requires the person holding the spear to remain in a static position while the "berserker" moves forward and kills him. In truth, you don't stab someone with a spear and leave it stuck in the target's body. You retract your weapon to continue defending/attacking. Under most circumstances a spear-wielding combatant would be able to physically step away from an opponent, and at the very least let go oh the spear and move around the transfixed (but still kicking) opponent to finish him with a sidearm. Clearly, there were plenty of people throughout history who preferred bulky spears, and it's not like I abhor them. All else being equal, I prefer to use a lighter spearhead. That is the personal conclusion I have come to at this point in my life, after studying multiple martial arts with spear elements, sparring with classmates and friends, and practicing/messing around by myself. I'm not suggesting my opinion is objective fact.
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Post by demented on May 20, 2020 17:56:50 GMT
Probably more of a preference thing. Fiore dei Liberi an Italian knight, mercenary and Master at arms seemed to like winged spears. www.armizare.org/armizare/the-weapons-of-armizare/minor-weapons/Not having to worry about the other guy pushing up the shaft and decapitate me is more of a thing for me. Also you can recover faster and use it to create openings. The weigttvis pretty insignificant in my opinion but it punctures better for me. It's important to keep in mind that the longer the spear, the more significant the weight of the spearhead becomes. Also, I have found that the mass of the spear haft (linearly accelerated) is sufficient for penetrating most targets. The spearhead really just needs to be hard, durable, and have an optimal profile for penetrating the intended target. I don't think over-penetration against a human target with a spear is much of a danger unless you are bracing to receive a charge, and in that case you would be prepared to discard the spear and fight on with a sidearm. I also think the movie trope of a transfixed warrior pulling his way up the spear to kill the wielder is usually pretty silly. It requires the person holding the spear to remain in a static position while the "berserker" moves forward and kills him. In truth, you don't stab someone with a spear and leave it stuck in the target's body. You retract your weapon to continue defending/attacking. Under most circumstances a spear-wielding combatant would be able to physically step away from an opponent, and at the very least let go oh the spear and move around the transfixed (but still kicking) opponent to finish him with a sidearm. Clearly, there were plenty of people throughout history who preferred bulky spears, and it's not like I abhor them. All else being equal, I prefer to use a lighter spearhead. That is the personal conclusion I have come to at this point in my life, after studying multiple martial arts with spear elements, sparring with classmates and friends, and practicing/messing around by myself. I'm not suggesting my opinion is objective fact. fair enough and good point(s) (pun intended). That was really what I was getting at too. Just playing devils advocate and expressing my slightly different opinion, no offense intended. There are historical records of people working there way up the shaft and killing people though and it does happen when spear hunting. Hopefully you dont mind me keeping the conversation going a bit, I wasn't sure if I annoyed you above or not. But if we are talking fighting then targets are usually not going to be static. If they are coming forward at all you stand much more of a chance of running the simple spear further in meaning much harder recovery and an increased risk of a counter shot. I guess from my perspective there are slight defensive advantages to the lugs and other slight advantages to the simple spear, as we both said it's apples to oranges though.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 14, 2020 9:47:02 GMT
My preference when using a short spear is to have a head long enough to threaten cuts. This gives more angles of attack against sword and shield than a thrusting-only spear.
This makes the head heavier than a minimal spearhead, but for a short spear (e.g., 7' long) this has little impact on the agility of the weapon. Adding wings is only a tiny further addition to the weight of the head, and as said upthread wings can be nice when facing a longer spear. Being able to use them for things like pulling a sword-and-shield user's shield is basically a freebie.
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