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Post by amstel78 on Mar 29, 2020 15:57:00 GMT
Where do I even begin? I waited over 3 months for my katana to ship from Hanbon. Granted, part of that delay was due to China essentially shutting down due to COVID-19. Anyway, I finally received it a few days ago. Cutting open a styrofoam box wrapped in yellow packing tape revealed a gorgeous looking ray-skin saya and a decently wrapped tsuka. The ito was very tight as it was wrapped with hishigami although the triangles could have been a bit more uniform. The kashira has a lip which doesn't transition seamlessly to the ito. The tsuba which is an iron crane looked decent except for some scuff marks near the edge which showed bare metal underneath. The carved brass habaki looked good and both mekugi were tight. The blade was folded and I had requested niku, which it had. Everything thus far looked OK and I could live with until I saw the yokote. I had specifically requested a geometric yokote. Each time I asked, Yao always said "yes, friend. We will make sure it has a geometric yokote." Even before it shipped and he sent pictures, I asked him to make sure the yokote was geometric and not ornamental since it's hard to discern the difference from medium resolution photos. He said don't worry, it has a geometric yokote. Well guess what? It has a !@#$%#^! ornamental yokote. Suffice it to say, I was more than a bit peeved. When I emailed him, this was his response which I've copied word for word from email:
Hell no. Thirty dollars isn't OK and what does he mean by saying that he misunderstood and no one in Longquan can forge a katana with geometric yokote? He has photos on his website of swords with it, and on some higher end ones, even specifically points it out. I told him his reply was a load of crock and that $30 bucks wasn't enough. In the end, he refunded $100 on a sword that cost me $335. In hindsight, I should have asked for $150 refund because that's what this katana is basically worth afterwords. Lesson learned for me at least, and that's to not deal with underhanded, dishonest bastards.
I may try my luck with Van Yang over at Jkoo / Sinosword, but I don't know if I'll get anything better.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 29, 2020 16:50:34 GMT
So for *my* education... A few searches on 'yokote' and I am still a little confused as to the difference. Teach me
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 29, 2020 17:03:09 GMT
I've only seen true geometric yokote on swords in the $1,000+ range because of the incredible amount of work involved in making a proper one. Perhaps by saying "geometric" it was understood to mean "evenly ground".
Don't know the details, but I will certainly give you $150 for the sword and pay for shipping
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Post by amstel78 on Mar 29, 2020 17:12:24 GMT
So for *my* education... A few searches on 'yokote' and I am still a little confused as to the difference. Teach me You should be able to feel the point of delineation from sword body to kissaki with your finger. Cosmetic yokote is done by polishing the kissaki differently than the rest of the blade.
I've only seen true geometric yokote on swords in the $1,000+ range because of the incredible amount of work involved in making a proper one. Perhaps by saying "geometric" it was understood to mean "evenly ground". Don't know the details, but I will certainly give you $150 for the sword and pay for shipping Don't get me wrong; the sword as a whole is quite nice. I was angry because despite the many back and forth emails and promises that the yokote would in fact be geometric, I received something to the contrary. I told Yao as much and added that he shouldn't promise something if he can't deliver; or if he doesn't understand a customer's request, then be sure to clarify. I'll use it as a beater until I can get something better.
Edit: in hindsight, I apologize for the tone of my first post. Had to vent. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.
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Post by phoule on Mar 29, 2020 22:45:59 GMT
You should try with Huawei, they do geometric yokote, and their blades in general looks better.
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 30, 2020 0:35:30 GMT
This is exactly one of the main reasons why I never recommend Hanbon and discourage people from purchasing from them. The "oh, so sorry, here's a tiny refund" is standard operating procedure for Hanbon.
Don't apologize for the tone of your posts, it is more than fair. Hanbon is not the best as far as Longquan businesses go. Bad tsuka and blades from my experience and have only heard positives on their more expensive laminated work. If the tsuka on yours is comfortable and the ito is decently done, that's a nice change of pace based on what I've seen. I've had a kashira come off cutting an apple (seriously).
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 30, 2020 4:48:00 GMT
My Hanwei Raptor Shinogi Zukuri as one of the cheaper kats has a geometric yokote.
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Post by haon on Mar 30, 2020 9:02:23 GMT
Where do I even begin? I waited over 3 months for my katana to ship from Hanbon. Granted, part of that delay was due to China essentially shutting down due to COVID-19. Anyway, I finally received it a few days ago. Cutting open a styrofoam box wrapped in yellow packing tape revealed a gorgeous looking ray-skin saya and a decently wrapped tsuka. The ito was very tight as it was wrapped with hishigami although the triangles could have been a bit more uniform. The kashira has a lip which doesn't transition seamlessly to the ito. The tsuba which is an iron crane looked decent except for some scuff marks near the edge which showed bare metal underneath. The carved brass habaki looked good and both mekugi were tight. The blade was folded and I had requested niku, which it had. Everything thus far looked OK and I could live with until I saw the yokote. I had specifically requested a geometric yokote. Each time I asked, Yao always said "yes, friend. We will make sure it has a geometric yokote." Even before it shipped and he sent pictures, I asked him to make sure the yokote was geometric and not ornamental since it's hard to discern the difference from medium resolution photos. He said don't worry, it has a geometric yokote. Well guess what? It has a !@#$%#^! ornamental yokote. Suffice it to say, I was more than a bit peeved. When I emailed him, this was his response which I've copied word for word from email:
Hell no. Thirty dollars isn't OK and what does he mean by saying that he misunderstood and no one in Longquan can forge a katana with geometric yokote? He has photos on his website of swords with it, and on some higher end ones, even specifically points it out. I told him his reply was a load of crock and that $30 bucks wasn't enough. In the end, he refunded $100 on a sword that cost me $335. In hindsight, I should have asked for $150 refund because that's what this katana is basically worth afterwords. Lesson learned for me at least, and that's to not deal with underhanded, dishonest bastards.
I may try my luck with Van Yang over at Jkoo / Sinosword, but I don't know if I'll get anything better.
Sinosword is good if you dont expect perfection, got mine 1,5 months ago, and for what it was supposed to be, it is fine. Also it has a real geometric yokote, they are able to do it. However, they screwed up the polish of the Kissaki and it Looks like the kissaki doenst have a hamon, but I cant confirm it. The next time I order a custom one I would try Huawei I guess, since I didnt really find negative reviews about them
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 30, 2020 9:28:32 GMT
The claim that nobody in Longquan makes geometric yokote is pure bull. I have a really nice sanmai wak that I got from Ryan (by accident when I ordered a cheap tanto from them), for heaven's sakes, that has one. But there's worse. I also have a katana I made with a DH folded futasuji bare blade that has one as well that I bought from Hanbon back in 2018.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 30, 2020 9:39:20 GMT
Just order a kat explicitly with cosmetic yokote and you'll get a geometric one!
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Post by pellius on Mar 30, 2020 12:19:05 GMT
Oh, man. That’s a bummer. Thanks for sharing, though.
As for Sinosword/JKOO, my anecdotal experience has been that they are okay so long as you “order by number.” But when I ordered a custom dao, they whiffed on a number of the details that were important to me. I got a really decent dao, just not the one I requested.
I would’ve thought katana would be easier, since they are much more popular and have well known, specific, “untranslated” terminology for pretty much every aspect of the sword.
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Mar 30, 2020 15:53:01 GMT
The claim that nobody in Longquan makes geometric yokote is pure bull. I have a really nice sanmai wak that I got from Ryan (by accident when I ordered a cheap tanto from them), for heaven's sakes, that has one. But there's worse. I also have a katana I made with a DH folded futasuji bare blade that has one as well that I bought from Hanbon back in 2018. SBG customs and Project X are geometric, also made in China. As are other brands. Yeah, its bull.
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Post by Google on Mar 31, 2020 21:52:11 GMT
well, most eay-style longquan makers merely grind the yokote instead of actually forging it anyway. also, it doesn't affect functionality that much. however, if you paid for one and it isn't there, you should get some compensation.
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Post by captainharlock on Apr 1, 2020 2:33:24 GMT
I don’t understand how people want such quality for so little money. It takes double the time to polish a katana in order to make a yokote geometric. Watch videos on polishing in the yokote and shaping the kissaki. It’s hard work and labor intensive. From the pics I can see looks like you got a nice sword for the money. Does it cut? . Enjoy it.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 1, 2020 18:44:03 GMT
I think we all know that Chinese production sword makers are capable of geometric kissaki, even if not authentically forged in, we've seen many over the years. it also seems that when there are mistakes like these made on a sellers behalf, they all of a sudden don't understand what you mean too well.... hmmmm. the typical response is to apologize for the "misunderstanding" and offer either a discount on future purchases (which is only more business for them) or a small refund. in some rare cases from some sellers, they will offer to replace the sword. even in that case, they must still be making money or they wouldn't keep doing it. maybe for every 5-10 incorrect orders that are accepted by the customer, 1 needs to be replaced, or something along those lines.
now why do these "mistakes" happen in the first place? I think it's because most sellers that claim to be a forge are not actually a forge but just people that place orders to a forge or find existing swords in the market that are close to what you have ordered. in many cases, close enough is good enough as they know that if the customer complains, they will make one of the above offers to try and fix it. this must work most of the time for them or they wouldn't keep doing it. I also suspect that most of the time, they don't even get to inspect the sword but rely on info given to them from the ones filling the orders and sending them out to you.
you can usually tell who sells like this by looking closely at their "stock" and noticing that there are too many inconsistencies to have been made by one person or one team of people. it's more likely that this is because they buy from many different sources. in some cases with some sellers, I believe they may buy blades from forges and then assemble them in house, according to your requests but this also doesn't guarantee accuracy and I would imagine if one sword was only 80% correct to the order, it may still get shipped out to you rather than redoing it.
some sellers, like Huawei, sell products made by the same person or small group of people and this is obvious when you study their offerings. this still doesn't guarantee perfect accuracy with your order but certainly cuts way down on the risk, imo.
as an fyi, be wary of sellers asking for extra money for things that should be included anyway, such as using hishigami or decent samegawa or geometric kissaki, etc.
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 1, 2020 23:28:46 GMT
I don’t understand how people want such quality for so little money. It takes double the time to polish a katana in order to make a yokote geometric. Watch videos on polishing in the yokote and shaping the kissaki. It’s hard work and labor intensive. From the pics I can see looks like you got a nice sword for the money. Does it cut? . Enjoy it. Prefacing this WADR and IMHO, understand this, middlemen across the water, not just in China but in the P.I., SEA, the Indian subcontinent, and a few lucky parts of Africa are buying items from local craftsmen for a few bucks and marking it up to Western retail before selling it here. Little of it goes to the craftspeople. For what we pay here, in the local economies we could get any level of quality we asked for. Another separate problem is how some middlemen misrepresent products and "tell tall stories". I can quite understand why folks get aggravated.
BTW, if you want to get really annoyed, forget swords and look at the price differentials on track shoes and other consumer items, along with purely decorative items marketed by alleged "charities".
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Apr 27, 2020 14:09:23 GMT
I will chime in with others and confirm.... Both Hanbon and the much-maligned Ryan have provided me geometric Yokote Katana blades in the past. Both can certainly make it that way. As I recall both blades were between the 475 to 560 dollar range. Their less expensive blades often did not have some of the nicer features I preferred. (Hishigami, Geometric Yokote, Hazuya polish, full Same, real horn accents on Saya, etc). To date, they only company which sent me an actual complex constructed blade (SanMai, Shizume, reverse Kobuse, etc) the FIRST time was Hanbon. Everyone else did a deceptive polish on the edge to make it look like it was a different steel sandwiched at the edge. Only UV light analysis showed it was just a different polish on a Maru pattern steel blade.
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Post by sebastian on Apr 28, 2020 2:37:03 GMT
I think Hanbon are for beginners and they aren't bad for say. They are a usable katana good for a beater and as a practice. I would have to agree, some features might be better elsewhere. (This is being said from a guy who thinks Hanbon's work is actually pretty awesome.)
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Post by shepherd214 on Apr 28, 2020 6:11:45 GMT
Funny that I'm looking at a Huawei right now that has geometric O kissaki, I've had several Huawei that have also had geometric kissaki, and I have had sinoswords that also have geometric kissaki. Sounds like they panicked and thought you would be casual about it and accept their answer.
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 28, 2020 6:18:21 GMT
If we could just get "China’s market regulators" to clean house on the production sword business like this when the pandemic is over...........
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