LeMal
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Posts: 1,180
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Post by LeMal on May 14, 2020 20:16:27 GMT
Hello, please help - i need some tranquilizing feedback! My crazy man just bought a sword from this company on Etsy, its called "Ahren Kriegsmesser", with a scabbard, and it was 1400 Euro! We had a serious discussion, because i find that thing crazy ugly - please someone tell me its at least worth the money from the craftmanship point of view! AAARGH! I have the Falke and absolutely love mine. It may in fact have become my very favorite sword--and having been seriously collecting more than 40 years that says something. |
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Post by Dandelion on May 14, 2020 20:22:39 GMT
Hello, please help - i need some tranquilizing feedback! My crazy man just bought a sword from this company on Etsy, its called "Ahren Kriegsmesser", with a scabbard, and it was 1400 Euro! We had a serious discussion, because i find that thing crazy ugly - please someone tell me its at least worth the money from the craftmanship point of view! AAARGH! I have the Falke and absolutely love mine. It may in fact have become my very favorite sword--and having been seriously collecting more than 40 years that says something. Wow... FOURTY years???  |
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on May 14, 2020 22:37:47 GMT
I have the Falke and absolutely love mine. It may in fact have become my very favorite sword--and having been seriously collecting more than 40 years that says something. Wow... FOURTY years??? Hey Dandelion, I know you have said you look up words in the English dictionary so I hope you don’t mind this help. It’s four and it’s forty. No u in forty. Hope this doesn’t make you mad. And believe me your English is better than my German, which consists of danka and bitte. And I’m sure I misspelled those, haha. |
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LeMal
Member
Posts: 1,180
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Post by LeMal on May 15, 2020 2:48:26 GMT
I have the Falke and absolutely love mine. It may in fact have become my very favorite sword--and having been seriously collecting more than 40 years that says something. Wow... FOURTY years??? :o Yup. Had my first antiques (a pipeback of some kind and an American 1796 knockoff bare blade I had to rehilt) in fall of 1980, bought my first repro (a Del Tin Danish Viking, the original DT2100 bought through MRL) in 1988. |
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Post by Dandelion on May 15, 2020 4:47:14 GMT
Wow... FOURTY years??? Hey Dandelion, I know you have said you look up words in the English dictionary so I hope you don’t mind this help. It’s four and it’s forty. No u in forty. Hope this doesn’t make you mad. And believe me your English is better than my German, which consists of danka and bitte. And I’m sure I misspelled those, haha. Thank you. The "foUrty" just seemed right; and yes, you did: its dankE! ;-) |
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harrybeck
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Posts: 999 
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Post by harrybeck on May 15, 2020 6:34:25 GMT
I got a. 1798from my sister for a Christmas present in 1976, it had been in the collection of Jacob javits before I got it. It had been excavated in Spain at the scene of a skirmish during the peninsula campaign.
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Post by StevenJ on May 16, 2020 12:42:30 GMT
For 900 Euros I would rather get the Pavel Moc two handed messer however there are a lot one handed messers between 200 and 400 euros on their site I am seriously considering to buy. So many of the budget messers on the market for that price range have these tiny wood slab grips and an ugly oversized steel pommel that gets brazed on. Fabri Armorum, Wulflund, and Viktor B all build their messers this way. Thanks for letting me know about Landsknecht Emporium. Do they feature you on their social media? They should with as many messers you own from them. hemasupplies.com/product/vistula-river-messer-with-scabbard/I was also seriously considering this one above for a sharp messer. I own a Wulflund messer that I was a bit disappointed in. The Wulflund I own is well tempered, no rattles, but I asked for it to be sharp. So they put a HMB stage sword blade on it and sharpened it with the steepest secondary bevel possible, they didn't even bother sharpening the false edge or the point. I spent oh God, 10+ hours on a belt sander regrnding it to shape. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if I didn't pay close to $400 US for it. At least that messer has real deer antler grip slabs. |
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Post by Dandelion on May 17, 2020 7:16:45 GMT
For 900 Euros I would rather get the Pavel Moc two handed messer however there are a lot one handed messers between 200 and 400 euros on their site I am seriously considering to buy. So many of the budget messers on the market for that price range have these tiny wood slab grips and an ugly oversized steel pommel that gets brazed on. Fabri Armorum, Wulflund, and Viktor B all build their messers this way. Thanks for letting me know about Landsknecht Emporium. Do they feature you on their social media? They should with as many messers you own from them. hemasupplies.com/product/vistula-river-messer-with-scabbard/I was also seriously considering this one above for a sharp messer. I own a Wulflund messer that I was a bit disappointed in. The Wulflund I own is well tempered, no rattles, but I asked for it to be sharp. So they put a HMB stage sword blade on it and sharpened it with the steepest secondary bevel possible, they didn't even bother sharpening the false edge or the point. I spent oh God, 10+ hours on a belt sander regrnding it to shape. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if I didn't pay close to $400 US for it. At least that messer has real deer antler grip slabs. Thats the real problem with a lot of eastern makers... they dont know how to make a real sharp blade - because they are simply not used to it. All of those companies are specialised in making HEMA- and stagefighting-stuff, so they just put edges on their blunts. Fabri Armourum has now a line of better developed sharp swords, Regenyei is a lot better right now (see picture), excellent edge work on our Kriegsmesser as on our Montante. We had wo Pavel Moc swords in sharp, and they were FAR too wobbly to proper cut and handle them. Literally noodles. Same with a sword from Viktor Berbeucz; edge work was amazing, super clean geometry, but the thing was flexible up to not useable (for us, at least). Attachments:
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Post by StevenJ on May 17, 2020 20:37:39 GMT
Hi Dandeloin, I understand what you're saying. Most of these central European smiths make swords for HMB and HEMA. That's how I first ended up buying products from them because I do armored combat fighting in the Adrian Empire. I will say in regards to Pavel Moc, I recently bought one of their Lichetenaur swords from outfit4events.com and was very happy with it. I self sharpened it and though it is a bit flexible I was able to still cut milk jugs, palm tree leaves, and water bottles with it. It also thrust very well. Oh in regards to Fabri, I did order sharps from them directly. I bought three sharp Polish/ Hungarian Sabers from them and they had good edges on them. The edges weren't perfect but they were workable. That Regenyei messer looks fantastic. I actually just bought a used Regenyei longsword blunt that I sharpened and in process of redoing the grip and will build a scabbard for it. I never owned a sharp from Viktor B, I own one HEMA longsword from him that I am very impressed with.
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Post by Dandelion on May 24, 2020 9:39:48 GMT
The "Ahren" Kriegsmesser was here - and went straight back! Great customer service from Adam at Landsknecht Emporium though; almost instant refund. He stands behind his sword and said they try to achieve most possible historical correctness, not perfection. But Holger was not pleased too much with the overall quality (to say it politely) - neither was i... well, this was the exact piece that Matt Easton had in its Youtube testing and so it did some travelling around already. Maybe that caused the flaws? That was not how a 1400 Euro sword should look like, sorry! * gap between grip and crossguard (more than fingernail) * grip and blade not perfectly in line * gap between "nagel" and crossguard (fingernail) * one brass sphere loose and rattling, the other one bent * last 20 to 30 cm of the blade wavy Its harsh to say that, but we have Windlass swords here with better fit & finish. Blade otherwise did look very nice, great distal taper, and the scabbard was well made. Maybe we will give them another try with one of their cheaper models. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jun 11, 2020 1:23:48 GMT
Honestly that sword looks fine. Even for 1400 euro.
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Post by StevenJ on Jun 11, 2020 11:56:51 GMT
For 1400 Euros is a lot for those mistakes. They are fixable. I would have someone weld the seam at the bottom of the nagle. You could also peen the reverse side of the cross guard where the nagle is peened through to try and secure it more. The loose brass detail could probably be peened back on. What do you mean by wavy on the blade? is the fuller not straight, is the blade warped somehow?
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 11, 2020 17:21:28 GMT
For 1400 Euros is a lot for those mistakes. They are fixable. I would have someone weld the seam at the bottom of the nagle. You could also peen the reverse side of the cross guard where the nagle is peened through to try and secure it more. The loose brass detail could probably be peened back on. What do you mean by wavy on the blade? is the fuller not straight, is the blade warped somehow? Blade is *slightly* double warped on the last 20 to 30 cm. |
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 11, 2020 17:25:43 GMT
Honestly that sword looks fine. Even for 1400 euro. No. You wouldnt say that if you had it in your hand. As i wrote above, and its true: we have Windlass swords with better fit & finish. Maybe this one is the milestone in historical correctness, but that doesnt compensate the flaws. If this was a 700 to 800 Euro sword, okay. But even for that price see what you can get from Regenyei or other eastern europe guys. For 1400 Euro we expect near Kopiuch/Sulowski quality. |
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Post by ihutch1 on Jul 3, 2020 5:29:55 GMT
For 900 Euros I would rather get the Pavel Moc two handed messer however there are a lot one handed messers between 200 and 400 euros on their site I am seriously considering to buy. So many of the budget messers on the market for that price range have these tiny wood slab grips and an ugly oversized steel pommel that gets brazed on. Fabri Armorum, Wulflund, and Viktor B all build their messers this way. Thanks for letting me know about Landsknecht Emporium. Do they feature you on their social media? They should with as many messers you own from them. I'm afraid I would be a terrible social media representative, I barely even check anything myself and almost never post haha. As for the Pavel Moc messer, it is quite attractive (though not perfect, which is to be expected at ~600 euros) and excellent value for money. I have to say though, that even after sharpening it's still only 3rd place in terms of cutting among my two-handed messers (less if we consider single-handers as well).
The single handers are definitely the best 'value for money' in my opinion. Especially if you like performance and don't mind (or enjoy?) historical appearance. I would definitely recommend the Adorian, it's currently my favorite production model by a bit.
I sadly don't own the Lutel saber, which is one of my regrets. I wanted it for years but was always put off by the wait times. Now I will have to get it used if one ever comes up.
Honestly that sword looks fine. Even for 1400 euro. No. You wouldnt say that if you had it in your hand. As i wrote above, and its true: we have Windlass swords with better fit & finish. Maybe this one is the milestone in historical correctness, but that doesnt compensate the flaws. If this was a 700 to 800 Euro sword, okay. But even for that price see what you can get from Regenyei or other eastern europe guys. For 1400 Euro we expect near Kopiuch/Sulowski quality.
I can definitely half agree with you. I think the Ahren and Falke might seem over-priced depending on what expectations and priorities and individual has. In my opinion, they don't represent the same undeniable 'value' that the standard single-hand offerings do.
That said the flaws you point out are all found on originals, including swords owned by royalty (wavy lines, uneven quillions, 'large' gaps, asymmetry in general), so they aren't a big deal to someone like me who places great value on historical correctness/appropriateness (both in terms of appearance and performance). Some customers today expect modern precision and finish at a certain price point (Albion are a fantastic production example of this), and others are happy with what is accurate to the medieval period.
The LE offerings in that price bracket will not satisfy someone looking for the precise aesthetic of the digital, or even the late industrial age. Though I still find them beautiful in the correct details that they replicate.
Whatever one's aesthetic preferences, the performance cannot be faulted; the Falke, which is not even my favorite, is definitely one of the best cutting swords I have used in 20+ years. It's right up there with the Albion Knecht and Principe in performance.
To go back to the Pavel Moc saber as an example, it is half the price of the Falke with arguably more labor spent on finish. But it doesn't cut as well, and when compared to the original it is based on, there are a number of dimensional discrepancies (length, thickness, weight etc). On the other hand, LE were able to exactly replicate an original for me; accurate in appearance, construction, and dimension down to a few grams in weight (which someone pointed out could be due to corrosion). In my opinion that is incredible, the next best thing to holding the actual original in your hand.
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Post by StevenJ on Jul 3, 2020 21:44:15 GMT
I heard Lutel went out of business unfortunately. Actually within the past month, I sold both my Wulflund Messers and bought the one handed Pavel Moc Messer. It was blunt, solid 1.8mm edge. However I was able to machine sharpen it in three hours including hand finishing. It's very good and highly unusual. The fuller and pommel are on the top side with the nagel. The opposite side has no pommel and no fuller. The nagel is not a rivet through the cross guard, it's welded onto the cross guard and the pommel, cross guard, and nagel are all connected with a steel grip frame. The distal tapering is very good, handles very well but like many single handed messers I don't care for the overly long grip. I have never owned the Albion messer or Falke they sound good. As far as Landsknecht my local HEMA chapter head recently placed an order for a blunt Dussack from them. I'll let you know what I think of it six months from now  . Of course he's left handed and I'm right handed so yeah I don't know how good I'll be at reviewing it. |
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Post by ihutch1 on Jul 3, 2020 22:20:54 GMT
I heard Lutel went out of business unfortunately. Actually within the past month, I sold both my Wulflund Messers and bought the one handed Pavel Moc Messer. It was blunt, solid 1.8mm edge. However I was able to machine sharpen it in three hours including hand finishing. It's very good and highly unusual. The fuller and pommel are on the top side with the nagel. The opposite side has no pommel and no fuller. The nagel is not a rivet through the cross guard, it's welded onto the cross guard and the pommel, cross guard, and nagel are all connected with a steel grip frame. The distal tapering is very good, handles very well but like many single handed messers I don't care for the overly long grip. I have never owned the Albion messer or Falke they sound good. As far as Landsknecht my local HEMA chapter head recently placed an order for a blunt Dussack from them. I'll let you know what I think of it six months from now . Of course he's left handed and I'm right handed so yeah I don't know how good I'll be at reviewing it.
Yes, he had been in poor health and did retire. I may have had a chance to get one before the end, but it seemed too dicey.
I don't have Moc's one handed messer but I think I remember it. I can't recall exactly if I've seen that kind of asymmetric pommel and fuller before, but it sounds very neat. I know some eastern swords and knives have fullers on only one side, but I would be curious to know if it occurred in messers too.
I have heard that the long grip is to allow hooking movements with the the bottom of the grip, but I agree, sometimes it gets in the way.
I have seen the blunt dussack from LE and I know they are making a sharp too. I'd be very curious to know what you think! I have held off even though I love dussacks because I would prefer one without a yelman (although the original they copied has one, I don't think it was super common), and I had read that the sharp uses the same basket as the blunt which is a bit enlarged to allow a HEMA glove to fit. I might have to see if they can customize one with a smaller basket and no yelman.
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Post by StevenJ on Jul 4, 2020 21:29:54 GMT
Yeah that's right I remember reading about health issues about the owner of Lutel on Myarmory. It is sad but thankfully there is still a large number of central European forges to chose from. I really need to do an updated post on this sub-forum of member's collection because I added a lot of new swords and some armor this year. www.outfit4events.com/eur/product/10186-long-knife-langmesser-mauritius-de-luxe/On outfit4events page it references the original being in Germany but it's super vague. I don't want to overtake your thread. Yeah basket hilts for re-enactment get made larger. Personally I think normal gloves with reinforced cuff would be fine since the fingers would be protected by the basket. Something like a demi gauntlet would work. |
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Post by Tomt24 on Jul 4, 2020 21:49:03 GMT
Yeah that's right I remember reading about health issues about the owner of Lutel on Myarmory. It is sad but thankfully there is still a large number of central European forges to chose from. I really need to do an updated post on this sub-forum of member's collection because I added a lot of new swords and some armor this year. www.outfit4events.com/eur/product/10186-long-knife-langmesser-mauritius-de-luxe/On outfit4events page it references the original being in Germany but it's super vague. I don't want to overtake your thread. Yeah basket hilts for re-enactment get made larger. Personally I think normal gloves with reinforced cuff would be fine since the fingers would be protected by the basket. Something like a demi gauntlet would work. This one is made by Pavel Moc. Maybe you can contact him directly for more information or a customized version. |
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Post by StevenJ on Jul 5, 2020 2:27:45 GMT
Yeah that's right I remember reading about health issues about the owner of Lutel on Myarmory. It is sad but thankfully there is still a large number of central European forges to chose from. I really need to do an updated post on this sub-forum of member's collection because I added a lot of new swords and some armor this year. www.outfit4events.com/eur/product/10186-long-knife-langmesser-mauritius-de-luxe/On outfit4events page it references the original being in Germany but it's super vague. I don't want to overtake your thread. Yeah basket hilts for re-enactment get made larger. Personally I think normal gloves with reinforced cuff would be fine since the fingers would be protected by the basket. Something like a demi gauntlet would work. This one is made by Pavel Moc. Maybe you can contact him directly for more information or a customized version. Yup I posted the link because that's the one I bought with the asymmetric fuller and pommel :D. I also wrote the review on it on outfit's page because I bought it from them. |
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. Of course he's left handed and I'm right handed so yeah I don't know how good I'll be at reviewing it. 
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
