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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 3, 2020 11:26:55 GMT
My sparring match in Germany a few weeks ago started a discussion about whether or not a katana can thrust. Of course it can, but the question then came up as to whether or not it can penetrate through some thick material like carpeting? According to the discussion, the results were either a tepid "maybe" to "no". So I decided to test it myself this morning. I cut a few squares of scrap carpeting and tapped them to some "volunteers" from the trash can. This exercise was two thrusts, and two cuts. I used my Cheness Oniyuri (9260 spring steel). The results are posted below. The thrust went right through with no effort whatsoever. The cuts were stopped, but did serious damage. In my opinion, against a living target it would be devastating. I used the same short, percussive hits I used on marcus' denim target, so I wasn't trying to cut the bottle in half. With that in mind, the damage was approximately the same as it would have been without the carpet, but I did feel noticeable resistance and I don't think it would have gone all the way if I wanted it to. This proves nothing whatsoever. All it shows is that using that sword with my technique, I got these results. I've said time and time again, the sword isn't that important when it comes to cutting, moreso the technique and skill of the wielder. I cut marcus313's infamous denim target to the core with both a ninjato and a machete, whereas other people barely made a dent it it. This was an experiment to settle my mind about whether or not I could stab through some resistance. And quite clearly I can. As with everything, DO try this at home! See for yourself what YOU can and cannot do, then practice where you are weak. Ok, have a SAFE day!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 3, 2020 13:11:52 GMT
I had been waiting for this thread. Thanks. Your results were roughly what I achieved. Too lazy to hunt up that thread now. But by memory neither of my katanas would cut the rug while one penetrated without problem. I had contributed the results to the shape of the Kissaki. The kissaki one the one that penetrated is similar to yours. As far as the lowly machete is concerned, don’t sell them short. While many turn their noses up at a machete I find a good one is a treasure indeed. They work as you proved. I love them.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 3, 2020 13:25:13 GMT
I would never turn my nose up at a machete. I have quite a few of them in my stash. They are excellent multi-purpose cutters and tools. Very low cost, durable, and do a good job for what they are designed to do. I certainly wouldn't feel unarmed if I was caught in a fight with "only" a machete. They may be too thin to cut through a bone, but they can certainly make a right proper mess of the meaty bits...
This experiment had been on my mind since it was first brought up, so first thing this morning I put a answer to the question. I feel satisfied that I can thrust through thick clothing and gambeson weight armor, and I feel somewhat confident that a correct cut will at least do some acceptable damage. And I have said many times over again, even a small 2cm cut in a human body can have devastating results- it isn't always required to do the impressive Conan style wide chopping slice to incapacitate your opponent.
Naturally, I will have to repeat the experiment when I get my gladius from KOA.... keep an eye out for that test!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 3, 2020 15:23:28 GMT
I am to my ancestors as the machete is to their swords.
Very nice stuff. I have always considered the katana as something I would hate to be stabbed by considering how stiff it is and the very acute tips.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 3, 2020 16:29:06 GMT
My sparring match in Germany a few weeks ago started a discussion about whether or not a katana can thrust. Of course it can, but the question then came up as to whether or not it can penetrate through some thick material like carpeting? According to the discussion, the results were either a tepid "maybe" to "no". So I decided to test it myself this morning. I cut a few squares of scrap carpeting and tapped them to some "volunteers" from the trash can. This exercise was two thrusts, and two cuts. I used my Cheness Oniyuri (9260 spring steel). The results are posted below. The thrust went right through with no effort whatsoever. The cuts were stopped, but did serious damage. In my opinion, against a living target it would be devastating. I used the same short, percussive hits I used on marcus' denim target, so I wasn't trying to cut the bottle in half. With that in mind, the damage was approximately the same as it would have been without the carpet, but I did feel noticeable resistance and I don't think it would have gone all the way if I wanted it to. This proves nothing whatsoever. All it shows is that using that sword with my technique, I got these results. I've said time and time again, the sword isn't that important when it comes to cutting, moreso the technique and skill of the wielder. I cut marcus313's infamous denim target to the core with both a ninjato and a machete, whereas other people barely made a dent it it. This was an experiment to settle my mind about whether or not I could stab through some resistance. And quite clearly I can. As with everything, DO try this at home! See for yourself what YOU can and cannot do, then practice where you are weak. Ok, have a SAFE day! It appears that you executed your thrusts with the Ha up...why did you do this? Why does anyone think that a katana is not capable of thrusting? There is at least one kata in each of the Ryu-Ha I studied as well as every other one I have observed in JSA that incorporates the tsuki (pronounced "ski" and is a thrust with the katana)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 3, 2020 16:35:30 GMT
They may be too thin to cut through a bone, but they can certainly make a right proper mess of the meaty bits... I've severed bone in a pig's leg with my 26" machete. Curiosity got the better me one day. I doubt anything less would have.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 3, 2020 16:36:37 GMT
Actually, the bottles were top side down in my homemade PVC pipe and sand bucket stand. Although, the ha up is a legitimate technique and I was taught to fight with it that way. In certain situations, it's the ideal posture. I don't have any reason to believe that up or down would make any difference whatsoever.
I guess people have been told so many times that a kat can't thrust that they start to accept it without question. But it doesn't matter. When I fight somebody who believes this, they will never expect me to do it...until I do...
Right, off to cut some gun barrels in half...with my stainless kat....
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Post by pgandy on Mar 3, 2020 16:41:56 GMT
@lordnewport I believe the question came as a result to a kata video in which a thrust was presented. I had always assumed that it was possible, so much so that I’d never checked it out. When my first katana failed to do so I was surprised. It’s the first time that one has failed me. I then fetched my best kata and it zipped through, not much of a contest.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 3, 2020 17:18:38 GMT
@lordnewport I believe the question came as a result to a kata video in which a thrust was presented. I had always assumed that it was possible, so much so that I’d never checked it out. When my first katana failed to do so I was surprised. It’s the first time that one has failed me. I then fetched my best kata and it zipped through, not much of a contest. We were taught a very specific full body technique to perform a tsuki in both Toayam Ryu and Mugai Ryu. I thought it was interesting that RufusScorpius did his tsuki tests with the ha facing up...this is not correct form and both tactically incorrect as well as potentially dangerous but I am assuming there was method to his madness...
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Post by pvsampson on Mar 3, 2020 22:47:43 GMT
@lordnewport I believe the question came as a result to a kata video in which a thrust was presented. I had always assumed that it was possible, so much so that I’d never checked it out. When my first katana failed to do so I was surprised. It’s the first time that one has failed me. I then fetched my best kata and it zipped through, not much of a contest. We were taught a very specific full body technique to perform a tsuki in both Toayam Ryu and Mugai Ryu. I thought it was interesting that RufusScorpius did his tsuki tests with the ha facing up...this is not correct form and both tactically incorrect as well as potentially dangerous but I am assuming there was method to his madness... So,in nana hon mei when executing the tsuki where should I be aiming for the entry point of kissaki?
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 3, 2020 23:04:39 GMT
We were taught a very specific full body technique to perform a tsuki in both Toayam Ryu and Mugai Ryu. I thought it was interesting that RufusScorpius did his tsuki tests with the ha facing up...this is not correct form and both tactically incorrect as well as potentially dangerous but I am assuming there was method to his madness... So,in nana hon mei when executing the tsuki where should I be aiming for the entry point of kissaki? The Stomping Step (fumikomiashi) is used when making a lunging attack (tsuki) in Nanahon Me. I was taught that one aimed the kissaki ,at a slightly upward angle, to penetrate at the solar plexus, just below the rib-cage. When correctly holding the katana in both hands, including for a tsuki, the ha would always be facing down / mune facing up. Maybe I'm not interpreting the pictures correctly...but ut looks like the blade endered the targets ha up and mune down.
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Post by pvsampson on Mar 3, 2020 23:09:15 GMT
So,in nana hon mei when executing the tsuki where should I be aiming for the entry point of kissaki? I was taught that one aimed the kissaki ,at a slightly upward angle, to penetrate at the solar plexus, just below the rib-cage. When correctly holding the katana in both hands, including for a tsuki, the ha would always be facing down / mune facing up. Maybe I'm not interpreting the pictures correctly...but ut looks like the blade endered the targets ha up and mune down. Thanks. It seems I am aiming correctly,execution may not be great yet but at least am going for the right spot.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Mar 3, 2020 23:21:34 GMT
So,in nana hon mei when executing the tsuki where should I be aiming for the entry point of kissaki? The Stomping Step (fumikomiashi) is used when making a lunging attack (tsuki) in Nanahon Me. I was taught that one aimed the kissaki ,at a slightly upward angle, to penetrate at the solar plexus, just below the rib-cage. When correctly holding the katana in both hands, including for a tsuki, the ha would always be facing down / mune facing up. Maybe I'm not interpreting the pictures correctly...but ut looks like the blade endered the targets ha up and mune down. Rufus said the bottles were upside down when doing the test and then right side up when pictures were taken. And he did say he was taught a method where ha side up was done. Just trying to clarify.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 3, 2020 23:33:20 GMT
The Stomping Step (fumikomiashi) is used when making a lunging attack (tsuki) in Nanahon Me. I was taught that one aimed the kissaki ,at a slightly upward angle, to penetrate at the solar plexus, just below the rib-cage. When correctly holding the katana in both hands, including for a tsuki, the ha would always be facing down / mune facing up. Maybe I'm not interpreting the pictures correctly...but ut looks like the blade endered the targets ha up and mune down. Rufus said t he bottles were upside down when doing the test and then right side up when pictures were taken. And he did say he was taught a method where ha side up was done. Just trying to clarify. Thanks for the clarification... that explains it. I did not notice either of those two points but hey... I am starting to need reading glasses. Did he mention the name of the JSA that taught him a ha up tsuki? I find it curious because the sword would need to be rotated in the hands to ha down to transition to a cut. There is a lot of very sophisticated Ryu-Ha in the JSA world...Toyama Ryu was by design somewhat simple when I compare it to the Mugai Ryu I also studied.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Mar 3, 2020 23:49:30 GMT
Rufus said t he bottles were upside down when doing the test and then right side up when pictures were taken. And he did say he was taught a method where ha side up was done. Just trying to clarify. Thanks for the clarification... that explains it. I did not notice either of those two points but hey... I am starting to need reading glasses. Did he mention the name of the JSA that taught him a ha up tsuki? I find it curious because the sword would need to be rotated in the hands to ha down to transition to a cut. There is a lot of very sophisticated Ryu-Ha in the JSA world...Toyama Ryu was by design somewhat simple when I compare it to the Mugai Ryu I also studied. He didn’t in this thread. He might have said what ryu he studied under in another. Seems one of the recent posts about JSA sparring showed the katana being turned ‘upside down’ before thrusting but I could be remembering wrong.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 4, 2020 1:06:54 GMT
Thanks for the clarification... that explains it. I did not notice either of those two points but hey... I am starting to need reading glasses. Did he mention the name of the JSA that taught him a ha up tsuki? I find it curious because the sword would need to be rotated in the hands to ha down to transition to a cut. There is a lot of very sophisticated Ryu-Ha in the JSA world...Toyama Ryu was by design somewhat simple when I compare it to the Mugai Ryu I also studied. He didn’t in this thread. He might have said what ryu he studied under in another. Seems one of the recent posts about JSA sparring showed the katana being turned ‘upside down’ before thrusting but I could be remembering wrong. Oh now, brother, you are asking me to remember something from just over 30 years ago. I can't place the ryu off the top of my head, but I still practice the ha facing up in the fragments of kata I remember. I was under a private instructor at the time and not with a school. It wasn't turning the sword over for a thrust, it was a full fight in that position. The best my dusty memory can serve me at the moment, was, I believe, for fighting against armor to get up under the lamellar plates, or against a left-handed opponent. I can't remember right now, but something to that effect. I'll probably remember at 3am or on the drive to work in the morning or something. In any event, the cuts I did this morning were sword right side up. My cutting stand is a piece of PVC pipe shoved in a bucket of sand. The water bottles are inverted and shoved in the open end of the pipe. They hold themselves on the end of the pipe very nicely due to the cone shape of the bottles setting in the circular opening of the PVC. If I squig the cut, I only hit PVC, and since it's in sand, it will move and further soften my embarrassment.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 4, 2020 1:15:28 GMT
He didn’t in this thread. He might have said what ryu he studied under in another. Seems one of the recent posts about JSA sparring showed the katana being turned ‘upside down’ before thrusting but I could be remembering wrong. Oh now, brother, you are asking me to remember something from just over 30 years ago. I can't place the ryu off the top of my head, but I still practice the ha facing up in the fragments of kata I remember. I was under a private instructor at the time and not with a school. It wasn't turning the sword over for a thrust, it was a full fight in that position. The best my dusty memory can serve me at the moment, was, I believe, for fighting against armor to get up under the lamellar plates, or against a left-handed opponent. I can't remember right now, but something to that effect. I'll probably remember at 3am or on the drive to work in the morning or something. In any event, the cuts I did this morning were sword right side up. My cutting stand is a piece of PVC pipe shoved in a bucket of sand. The water bottles are inverted and shoved in the open end of the pipe. They hold themselves on the end of the pipe very nicely due to the cone shape of the bottles setting in the circular opening of the PVC. If I squig the cut, I only hit PVC, and since it's in sand, it will move and further soften my embarrassment. I don't know why anyone would think a katana could not be competent in the thrust.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 4, 2020 4:08:02 GMT
Ive done some similar tests with denim layers over pork, with longsword, katana, sidesword and rapier.
The katana was able to cut through 8 layers of denim (didnt try thicker) but nowhere near lethal in my opinion.
Thrusts were easy with all the swords tested and it is for that reason that i now try to thrust a lot more in sparring. Cuts, i try to direct to unclothed or thinly clothed areas such as the limbs and face.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 4, 2020 6:19:15 GMT
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Post by pgandy on Mar 4, 2020 8:33:40 GMT
You win.
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