|
Post by pellius on Mar 5, 2020 2:00:54 GMT
I’m glad your sword met/exceeded your expectations. It looks pretty awesome. Thanks for sharing
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Mar 5, 2020 8:35:45 GMT
Thank you Pellius.
Cheers.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Mar 6, 2020 18:41:29 GMT
I think I have cracked it. Yesterday I found the Vinkenhuizen Collection, a sublime collection of detailed water colours, done in situ it looks like, of every branch and rank of the Sardinian Army over the years, from circa 1803 to 1859. Bookmark this link as it may help you if you ever have to find a particular uniform or sabre. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Vinkhuijzen:_Military_uniforms_of_Italy,_Kingdom_of_Sardinia I found the sabre there, at least it looks like it. First off, I read the discharge document and found this: These are the discharge papers of one Corporal Sajino, Giovanni-Luigi, born at Montaldo near Turin in the year 1816. The document is printed on a special heavy document paper that had to give the impression it was done on parchment. I know this kind of paper very well and it is defintely of the period. The detailes were hand written in and that caused some problems here and there. 2nd of April of the year 1837 he joined the 1st Regiment (Nizza) of the Cavalry. He was transferred to the Provincial Field (Mounted) Artillery by the order of the 14th of March 1840 and was on active duty there from the 14th of May 1840. He was promoted to Under(?) Corporal the 26th of June 1848 and again promoted to full Corporal of the 4th Company the 9th of July of the year 1848. Corporal Sajino fought in the campaigns of the year 1848 and in the campaigns against Austria in the year of 1849. As the document was signed in 1854, I think he was discharged in that year after 17 years of service. He would have been 38 by that time. This is where the Sardinian Artillery belt buckle set comes in. I often wondered why they were included in the package, as I was firmly convinced of a Cavalry provenance but now I know. At first I had my doubts that the buckles were Sardinian, so I went looking for them. Look much like the French of the period, but then I found some images of Sardinian Officers cartridge belts. Notice that the stack of cannon balls is missing in the Sardinian example and that the ,,explosion'' or the smoke goes to the right. I found three such cartridge boxes and they all look just like the one above. Here is Corporal Sajinos belt buckle set: The guns are screwed in place and look very much like real silver, as do the ,,explosions'', which are pinned to the main gild bronze body. The left buckle has the ,,explosion'' go to the left. Guess to make things symmetrical. He lost the hook somewhere down the line and just bend a nail. If it works it works. So, we now know a lot about Corporal Sajino, but what about the sabre? This is where the Vinkenhuizen Collection comes in. There I found a nice water colour of an Artillery Corporal, from the right period too and with the sabre. The only problem is that I cannot read the heading on the page. This Corporal was from a distinctive Province and as such didn't carry the ,,normal'' M1833 Artillery sabre which would have been used in most cases as you can see when you plow through the many pictures from the collection. Only here I found a sabre which is very close to mine. Notice the dove head pommel cap,the langets, the distance between the ring mounts, the drag. The only thing off is the knuckle bow. That's a bummer. Here is the standard M1833 which would stay in service until the M1855. All in all I think this is as close to cracking the mystery as I will ever be. The sabre is clearly a Provincial variant of an NCO/Officers sabre. Now if only I could read the header on the page... Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Pino on Mar 6, 2020 19:21:56 GMT
As I said earlier, an Italian 1832 LC officer sword, customized variant made for NCO from the looks of the former owner's discharge papers.
So you are the one who snatched it from that French site, huh? Nice deal!
On another note, forget about the sword with the yellow background as it is nothing of an Italian officer variant: that's simply my own British 1796 NCO/Off sword.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 6, 2020 20:21:33 GMT
Hmphh, right P-guard, different customized grip, langets, quillon, blade, tip...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 20:32:09 GMT
As I said earlier, an Italian 1832 LC officer sword, customized variant made for NCO from the looks of the former owner's discharge papers. So you are the one who snatched it from that French site, huh? Nice deal! On another note, forget about the sword with the yellow background as it is nothing of an Italian officer variant: that's simply my own British 1796 NCO/Off sword. I was about to say about this one, in espying the ears Now deleted but the "comma" ears common to the Osborn & Gunby 1796 swords. Carry on
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Mar 6, 2020 20:51:54 GMT
Thanks Pino. I have taken your sabre out. I would suggest a Provincial variant not some custom private order job. The document states he joined a specific Provincial regiment. Maybe the one where the papers were signed, but I cannot be sure as the hand written text is often very hard to read and follow. There were Provincial variants of regulation designs. The grip comes from NCO/Officers sabres from at least before the M1833. Calamandrei shows them on Fortress Officers sabres of the 1819-1829 period and those were Artillery Officers, though not Field Artillery. Maybe a poor Province just used old grip stock. As NCO's were former conscripts, often from a poor background and pay wasn't plenty too, I don't think Corporal Sajino had much money to spend on custom sabres. No, in light of what the Corporal in the water colour is wearing I would suggest a provincial variant even if it was on the M1832 LC. Pino, do you have a picture of this M1832? As an aside: The knuckle bow, the guard, langets and ferule are one solid piece. Not brazed together, but cast in one mold. Never seen that before. I think I have the maker stamp. Made a small drawing of it. As far as I can see it resembles a knight. Looked it up in Bezdek and found this: The stamp misses the crest, but I think it is close enough.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 21:17:25 GMT
The Kirschbaum mark is pretty distinctive. Add that the Kirschbaum family were distributors, not smiths and cutlers. See earlier K&S (Schimmelbusch)and later WKC. Kirschbaum&Schimmelbusch seemingly separating twixt generations. Whatever though.
|
|
|
Post by Pino on Mar 6, 2020 22:17:34 GMT
Hmphh, right P-guard, different customized grip, langets, quillon, blade, tip... You'd be shocked then to see how many variants there exist of the simple French 1882 sword and who respect little of its regulation standards. Besides see the pic below and make your own conclusions. Uhl-man, sir indeed a Provincial/local made specimen is quite most likely the answer to your quest but I'd hesitate to label it for troopers and NCOs issued stock, what you have is a quality sword not made for the simple cavalryman. Check here the pic as seen on Calamandrei's book that shows 3 different variants of the said 1832 sword for ligh cav officers: What do we see on center sword? Same dovehead pommel, same round half langets, same P-Guard hilt with sword knot hole. Now take the blade and quillon of sword at left and give it to the sword at centre and voila! The pic is not great but if you inspect the ferrule of the center sword you can even see the langet extension that looks exactly like yours.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 6, 2020 22:26:08 GMT
I see a clumsier pommel part on Uhlans saber and the langets extending under the grip. Not speaking of the blade. I don't have experience or knowledge of antique sabers and possible differences in one type, just looking at the stuff.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 6, 2020 22:30:07 GMT
Hmphh, right P-guard, different customized grip, langets, quillon, blade, tip... You'd be shocked then to see how many variants there exist of the simple French 1882 sword and who respect little of its regulation standards. Besides see the pic below and make your own conclusions. Uhl-man, sir indeed a Provincial/local made specimen is quite most likely the answer to your quest but I'd hesitate to label it for troopers and NCOs issued stock, what you have is a quality sword not made for the simple cavalryman. Check here the pic as seen on Calamandrei's book that shows 3 different variants of the said 1832 sword for ligh cav officers: What do we see on center sword? Same dovehead pommel, same round half langets, same P-Guard hilt with sword knot hole. Now take the blade and quillon of sword at left and give it to the sword at centre and voila! The pic is not great but if you inspect the ferrule of the center sword you can even see the langet extension that looks exactly like yours. You have a few for sale on eBay now right? Those 1882s are quite strange. Sorry about that KD89 variant by the way.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Mar 6, 2020 23:06:16 GMT
Thank you Jordan. It is a quality sabre alright. Best work I have seen in a long long time.
About the stamp: Carl Reinhard Kirschbaum is listed as manufacturer. Besides, it's the only one there is on the blade. Nothing in Bezdek comes even close. The Kirschbaum stamp is the only one that more or less fits. Also, stamps change over time. Mine might be an early one. Bezdek, fine as it may be, doesn't have all stamps, nor every variant. I picked up and added some variants thus far and names that aren't even mentioned.
The M1832: Think indeed this is about as close as it gets. Mix the parts and indeed presto! Mine is a very beefy job though. 37 mm wide blade. Made for work, not Dress, though the polish in some untouched spots is almost of katana quality. Like I said, this thing is put together like a quality gun. The guard, langet and ferule combo clinches it for me.
What shall I call it?
,, A Royal Sardinian Field Artillery NCO/Officers sabre, based on the M1832''?
Sounds good to me.
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Pino on Mar 6, 2020 23:09:08 GMT
A quick photoshopping gave this : red line: the ferrule langet design blue: the back fuller of the blade Any questions?
|
|
|
Post by Pino on Mar 6, 2020 23:12:11 GMT
You have a few for sale on eBay now right? Those 1882s are quite strange. Sorry about that KD89 variant by the way. Aye, I have one, but for cavalry officer. One of many weird/non-regulation oddballs I had in the collection, plenty more on reserve too.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 6, 2020 23:14:34 GMT
A quick photoshopping gave this : red line: the ferrule langet design blue: the back fuller of the blade Any questions? Nope, look at the OP picture of the hilt. Ok, only Uhlan can tell us.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Mar 6, 2020 23:16:51 GMT
Only that it has the pommel cap from sabre nr.3 and as far as I can see is somewhat beefier in the parts and surely the blade. Also the grip is longer with 4 finger slots. But this is as close as it gets I think. Thanks very much.
Cheers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 23:21:05 GMT
The Kirschbaum knight's bust has always been clearly stamped and used even today. There have never been any distinctive variances of that. Sorry, but I think you are fishing a bit regarding that.
There was also Schnitzler&Kirschbaum which also underlines distributorship (S&K) which predate the knight's bust. The drawing you made within a circle is interesting enough in its own right but imo, I would never confuse it with the well detailed bust Kirschbaum has used right along. I would add that their own company history, related on their site puts the usage of the knight's bust as beginning in 1854.
Cheers GC
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Mar 6, 2020 23:27:15 GMT
Well then I've found another unknown Solingen forge or supplier using a knights head. Note that the Carl Reinhard knights head is much more schematic than the later, detailed, K&C and W.R.K. knights head.
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Pino on Mar 7, 2020 0:15:01 GMT
Only that it has the pommel cap from sabre nr.3 and as far as I can see is somewhat beefier in the parts and surely the blade. Also the grip is longer with 4 finger slots. But this is as close as it gets I think. Thanks very much. Cheers. Exactly, my point is they are from the same type. Thickness of fittings, number of grips, pommel shape and even blade type become mere irrelevant details when identifying a mother branch.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Mar 7, 2020 5:03:51 GMT
Thank you Pino.
Well, this is it then. The end of the path through the Italian minefield. A very interesting exercise it was. Now I will clean the sabre a bit and make a nice presentation with a lot of glamour shots. Much thanks to everybody involved here.
Cheers.
|
|