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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 27, 2020 5:23:33 GMT
The one with the matching quillon has the wrong langets.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 27, 2020 8:39:34 GMT
The type of grip places my sabre firmly into the earlier period 1819-1829. As far as I can see this was the earliest wooden grip model for Officer sabres. If you compare the two grip styles you see the 1831 already has the pronounced finger slots of the still later models. That is were you went wrong Pino. Many, if not all, of the Officer sabres were updated in the course of their service. This update was the style of the wooden grip mostly, as this was the cheapest way. That is why you often see Bersaglieri sabres of the early type M1855 with the squarish, faceted and checkered grips, the early M1855 baskets and blades, get updated to the new model by just replacing the grip. It was easy to do as the Officers sabres were all screw on affairs. That is the trouble with trying to evaluate any Italian Officers sabre. And that is apart from that most endearing habit of incorporating Grandpas French circa 1780 family blade into the mix. That is why collecting Italian sabres is so interesting. First you have to find the unaltered basic type and then compare it with the one you are interested in. You may find that this sabre basically is an M1831 with the grips of the M1888 and the scabbard and blade of the M1870. In short, Italian Officers sabres can be a jumble of parts. Your 1831's have the grips of the 1870'ish models it looks like. It looks like Calamandrei just skipped over this phenomenon. No, my sabre is an early 19th C. one. Qua style it fits the period perfectly. Were I have doubts is that it just doesn't look like the more iffy Officers uniform sabres and has all the heft of a battle sabre. Austro-Hungarian Hussar style quite hefty blade and the hilt almost a one on one copy (apart from the brace) of the Prussian M1811, with even the sword knot slot in the right place and everything thick and sturdy. Could be an Officers battle sabre though. And I have been thinking about those damn langets. I have been looking everywhere from Italian fora to plowing through the stock of Risorgimento museums all over the place, to Austria, diverse German states, France, Czerny's catalogues, you name it and I have been there and the result is nada and zilch to show for weeks and weeks of delving. So, for now it looks like it is a one off design and I was wrong with the statement that I had seen it before somewhere. The mind can work in strange ways. If it was a design found on more sabres or even on some niche standard (regulation) model I would have found it by now. Guess it is a fluke and a dead end for now. If it wasn't it would have come up in Calamandrei. I even plowed through rows and rows of bajonets for God's sake. You never know. So I would like to suggest to leave the langets alone for now and concentrate more on the overall design of this sabre with its strong Germanic overtones. Where is that elusive M1819? Not the Infantry one that is...
Cheers.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 27, 2020 10:52:31 GMT
What oh what if the sabre too is a one off? Wouldn't be the first. Going through the Czerny's catalogues you'll see stuff that in any other country would have ,,Verboten!''. The leeway Italian Officers had is just plain crazy. Blucher or P1796 LC blade? It may very well be and after this long search I am starting to lean in that direction, that there isn't an M1819 Cavalry or Mounted Artillery and if there is, it probably doesn't have anything to do with this sabre. Surely a Cavalry cum Artillery M1819 sabre would have been presented in the Calamandrei book? Another thing is that the 1833 Officers (Artillery) still has the leather and wire grip. Interesting to see too that they incorporated the ferule of an earlier model or straight from the M1824 HC into the assembly, like they did with the M1834 HC sabre. Interesting to see the knuckle bow brace again, which again doesn't seem to be functional as the hilt parts on this M1833 are just as sturdy and thick as on my sabre. What I am getting at is this: What if the grip (in the style of 1819-1829) we see on my sabre was a replacement for a leather and wire grip, just to modernise the sabre a bit, like many an Officer did? That was my first impression when I looked at this sabre a long time ago. It looks more and more like the sabre was a private order, a one off, done at the request of the Officer who had the 1819-1829 grip incorporated into the design or this was a private order sabre of the family (Dad) and the Officer modernised it a bit when he took it over. The hilt points to the Prussian M1811 as far as I can see at the moment, but with a brace in the hilt and funny langets, which also seem to point into the general direction of a private order design. Those same, quite confusing, mongrels we can also see at the Kingdom of Naples. Here, although the ties with France were more than strong, we see some Cavalry Officers sporting their souped up variants of the British no less! P1796 LC sabre. And here is another one of those Austro-Hungarian Hussar blades. Never mind the rest.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 27, 2020 11:53:24 GMT
My thought go into the direction of a heavily customized piece too. One intersting point is the broadness of the grip which seems to cover the extended langets in the same plane as the regular langets. Imagine this on a regular 1796/1811.
A bit odd seems to me the idea of an officer who got his saber so heavily customized but in the direction of a more "tactical" sword. Clip point for better thrusting on a talwaresque cutting blade. "Modern" ergonomic grip. Why not simply use a better suited saber model for this? The whole piece looks like someone planning to go to battle with it but couldn't somehow get a better sword.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 27, 2020 12:27:20 GMT
Maybe that is where this whole Italian family blade/sabre business comes in?
If you customise you start with an existing model and shape it to your liking. Look at the images in the my post above.
If you do a private order you design the whole thing from scratch. Here it could be an Austro-Hungarian (style?) blade coupled with a Blucher (style?) hilt with the added, for us infuriating, bonus of some very cranky langets. The latter no doubt added just to pi$$ us off.:D
Like I said above, to me it starts to look like A: that it was either the Officer who designed this sabre with the incorporation of the 1819-1829 style grip included, or B: this was a family piece and the Officer just removed the old wired, leather over wood grip on Dads private order sabre to modernise it a bit. As there, thus far, is no sign of a regulation model that could have been the basis for the sabre, for the moment I tend to go with either one of the suggestions I did, but with a slight preference for option B.
Cheers.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 27, 2020 12:46:32 GMT
The unification of Italy meant 55 years of revolutionary organisations (carbonarii to the red shirts). Probably many of those fighters weren't equipped like a official army. Perhaps someone of those had this saber made from an older model.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 27, 2020 13:04:38 GMT
Could be. Or made up from (older) parts from the sword cutlers bin. With the sabre at a later date fitted with the wood grip. That's the problem with speculation. Cannot mail the people involved anymore.
Cheers.
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Post by Spathologist on Mar 1, 2020 0:37:14 GMT
Link to the original design parameters of the M1902? I've read a thread regarding the argument between Mle1882 and M1888 influence. The image is gone, it is an old thread. It is possible Varangian might check in (as an erstwhile poster) but the letter posted was his contribution.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 1, 2020 1:31:42 GMT
The image is gone, it is an old thread. It is possible Varangian might check in (as an erstwhile poster) but the letter posted was his contribution. Thank you! Saved to my own records now as well.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 1, 2020 2:01:12 GMT
The image is gone, it is an old thread. It is possible Varangian might check in (as an erstwhile poster) but the letter posted was his contribution. Thank you I've saved it also.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 21:34:20 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 2, 2020 9:10:58 GMT
Thanks for the link Edelweiss.
I have been trying to read the fuzzy screen shots of the document that comes with the sabre. Discharge papers of one Giovanni Luigi, born in 1816 at the comune de Montaldo, Corporal of the 4th company of the 1st regiment ,,Nizza'' Cavalry. Montaldo is about 12 km from Turin, so firmly on Savoy territory at the time. Google Maps Sat. view is great and I made some screen shots of the area. Montaldo was and still is one of those very small settlements close up to the castle of a local lord, probably a Montaldo clan. Mountains and foot hills. Corporal Luigi fought two battles with the Austrians in 1848 in the first war of independence. There is more, but for that to figure out I have to wait until the sabre is delivered. Right now it is on the road somewhere in France. All of this info makes me think that the connection sabre - documents could be sound. A. As a Corporal (NCO) at that time, Luigi was entitled to have an Officers sabre, wood Officers grip included. That solves one problem. B. As the sabre is not found in the Calamandrei canon, I am very much tempted for now to label the sabre, as the hilt has Austrian - Hungarian style cues, with an Austro-Hungarian Hussar style blade, the whole probably a variant of the P1796 LC, like the Horsemen sabre from the link above, which has the same narrow fuller under the spine by the way, as Giovanni Luigi's Austrian battle trophy. He probably had the armourer fit his Austrian unregulated (Hussar? Officers?) sabre with the Sardinian Army Officers grip as his badge of rank. Though the pay for Corporals of the Sardinian Army was more than for Troopers, I do not think this permitted him to order a sabre from say Solingen. So, the battle trophy idea looks the more reasonable one to me. For now.
Cheers.
Edit. The Nizza Cavalry changed from LC to HC or vice versa somewhere along the line. So they must have been issued with the M1829 HC or the M1834 LC sabres. Being an NCO, Luigi was entitled to carry his version of a private order Officers sabre. Whether he was entitled to carry a battle trophy while on duty I do not know. As it looks like the grip doesn't show much wear at all, the ebony stain would have worn off here and there if the sabre was in constand use, I am tempted to look at the sabre as Luigi's battle trophy cum keepsake to take home after discharge. Any takers?
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Post by Polyester on Mar 2, 2020 17:13:51 GMT
The saber also looks very interesting. Are there no markings or inscriptions on them?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 2, 2020 21:51:55 GMT
Cannot say at the moment. The seller doesn't mention stamps. The sabre is somewhere in France on its way here. Hopefully at the end of the week I'll know more.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 4, 2020 10:36:37 GMT
So the sabre arrived 20 minutes ago. That thing is massive! And extreemly well made too. Expert machining on all hilt parts. Like the work one may observe on a quality gun. No washed out lines on the blade, no damage and only some junk and rust under the langets. Very high polish under the cleaning scratches. The washer is made from that typical red textile (not velvet) one can see on most Savoy sabres, for Officers and troopers alike. Looks like they ditched the leather washers earlier than I thought. The knuckle bow is faceted. Blade has a round spine while the scabbard has a flat spine. Thus far no stamps, but I will clean under the langets to be sure. Very impressed. This was a good deal for whatever it is.
Cheers.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 4, 2020 13:49:59 GMT
Sounds like you are more than pleased with your toy. Good.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 4, 2020 14:54:25 GMT
How much was it again?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 4, 2020 20:00:49 GMT
How much what? There is a sort of stamp under a langet. I cleaned the junk out and can make out a circle with something in it. Circle is about 4-5 mm across. I'll have to find a way to clean this up some more. If it has a helmet in there it could be the stamp of Carl Reinhart Kirschbaum. No inspection stamps of any kind so it is an Officers sabre alright. The sabre feels huge. Bigger than it is. Here are my numbers: LOA: 104.5 cm. LS: 100.5 cm. LBL: 86.5 cm. WBL: 37 mm. Th. BL: 10 mm. Weight OA: 1721 gram. Weight sabre: 1012 gram. POB: a whopping 17.5 cm from the guard. Definitely not an Officers dress sabre. Though I have the impression that this some kind of Cavalry Officers sabre, which would tie in with the Savoy discharge document, the situation at the time (1819-1829) makes it very difficult to label this sabre correctly. There were a lot of other players around. Savoy was just one of them. All had sabres modelled after the Savoy regulations to some extend, notice the ,,some extend'', while Officers of all competing entities pretty much did whatever they liked. Here are a few more examples: Tuscan sabre for frontier guards. Savoy? This one has the faceted pommelcap cum backstrap like mine. Piemont M1855 based Navy Officers sabre by Bleckmann Solingen. Bleckmann at that time was a main contractor for Savoy. Parma Officers sabre. That's four M1855's. All different. Officers sabre based on the M1855. Origin unknown. Not Navy. Also not from around 1800 when hilts like these were fashionable..... Tuscan volunteer sabre. Tuscan Infantry sabre based on the Austrian M1836. It's enough to make a grown man cry. Then there are all the other fiefdoms out there. It's a jungle full of Officers on acid.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Mar 4, 2020 20:34:57 GMT
I was wondering how much your new baby cost... Awesome sword by the way! Hows the grip feel?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 4, 2020 21:10:45 GMT
Excluding the document and the belt buckle set that would be 3 Windlasses. The beefy grip feels just right for this nose heavy sabre. At least for me. Though the wood is smooth, the notches sure do help to get a grip on it. :) Grip and hilt are large so handling with gauntlets is no problem at all. Here are three more images of the Parma Officers sabre: Very nice gild and blue compartment. Textile washer. The sabre was put together by Noledi of Genoa. Maybe they had the hilt made too. Genoa had foundries. Most if not all blades and scabbards were imported from Solingen. Looking at the scabbard the design was based on an Austrian Infantry Officers sabre.
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