|
Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 15, 2020 5:31:00 GMT
So, learned the rules and set up for this on the fly, and by that I mean as I was doing my fly as between standing near it and using the restroom is started and was well into effect when I returned lol.
Almost got DQ'd, used to about 32 - 34", 36" of blade and an overextended cut number 2 with poor recovery planted the foible into the ground and got a bad mark.
Overall, it was fun, I didn't place as place as bad as I thought I would and of course it's always a joy to wack tatami.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Feb 15, 2020 7:34:11 GMT
So, learned the rules and set up for this on the fly, and by that I mean as I was doing my fly as between standing near it and using the restroom is started and was well into effect when I returned lol. Almost got DQ'd, used to about 32 - 34", 36" of blade and an overextended cut number 2 with poor recovery planted the foible into the ground and got a bad mark. Overall, it was fun, I didn't place as place as bad as I thought I would and of course it's always a joy to wack tatami. You should have borrowed one of the loaner swords which would have been more effective than your French saber (cool to be competing with an antique). It is my observation having been watching the cutting all day that the HEMA / European sword community dos not get a lot of practice cutting mats. many competitors today had never cut a tatami mat in their lives and cutting is a different skill set than sparing. I saw a thrown sword and several tips biting the flooring...all things that would have you disqualified from a JSA Tai Kai. You acquitted yourself well regardless and as I said.. bonus points for being the only competitor to use a real antique blade.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 15, 2020 16:28:29 GMT
Those were loaner swords!?!
Yeah, I can count the mats I've cut on one hand. I like cutting them but they're pretty expensive as a target.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 16:54:15 GMT
Jordan, only you would use an antique sword in a cutting competition and almost miss it because of a bathroom break. It looks like you had a lot of fun though. That's what counts.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Feb 15, 2020 17:52:22 GMT
You no doubt gained experience and had fun. They are important. Balloon busting is harder than it appears. I found this out with firearm particularly with black powder. It was common to retrieve an unpopped balloon with several gray strikes on the side from a ball just pushing it aside. I tried this in my house with swords by suspending balloons overhead and at times plum slam failed regardless of the number of attempts. If my memory serves me my M1840 gave the most constant positive results. What I did learn was foot work played a big part and that included what I was wearing. I did best barefooted. After learning this I found that Converse Chuck Tylor All-Star shoes and by tabby boots would also work. Now you got my curiosity up and with two balloons on inventory I’ll check out the M1902. Thanks for sharing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 20:25:42 GMT
Huzzah!
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 17, 2020 21:27:26 GMT
I'm glad to see forum members getting out and about doing sword stuff. It's no good sitting at home talking about this. Get out and go.
Good cut, bad cut. whatever cut. You went and did it. thumbs up, dude!
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Feb 18, 2020 4:20:40 GMT
I'm glad to see forum members getting out and about doing sword stuff. It's no good sitting at home talking about this. Get out and go. Good cut, bad cut. whatever cut. You went and did it. thumbs up, dude! Not a water bottle or pool noddle to be seen...
|
|
Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,451
|
Post by Aikidoka on Feb 18, 2020 6:24:13 GMT
So, learned the rules and set up for this on the fly, and by that I mean as I was doing my fly as between standing near it and using the restroom is started and was well into effect when I returned lol. Almost got DQ'd, used to about 32 - 34", 36" of blade and an overextended cut number 2 with poor recovery planted the foible into the ground and got a bad mark. Overall, it was fun, I didn't place as place as bad as I thought I would and of course it's always a joy to wack tatami. Hi Jordan!
I saw part of that cutting at the event. I didn't realize it was you. Wish we had a chance to talk at the event.
That was an interesting tournament. One of only a few single hand cutting contests so far within the HEMA community and the first at SoCal Swordfight.
You did well! I hope to see you at future events.
BTW... my tournament, the Valley of the Sun Cutting Tournaments, will take place the weekend of March 21-22.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 18, 2020 6:31:11 GMT
So, learned the rules and set up for this on the fly, and by that I mean as I was doing my fly as between standing near it and using the restroom is started and was well into effect when I returned lol. Almost got DQ'd, used to about 32 - 34", 36" of blade and an overextended cut number 2 with poor recovery planted the foible into the ground and got a bad mark. Overall, it was fun, I didn't place as place as bad as I thought I would and of course it's always a joy to wack tatami. Hi Jordan!
I saw part of that cutting at the event. I didn't realize it was you. Wish we had a chance to talk at the event.
That was an interesting tournament. One of only a few single hand cutting contests so far within the HEMA community and the first at SoCal Swordfight.
You did well! I hope to see you at future events.
BTW... my tournament, the Valley of the Sun Cutting Tournaments, will take place the weekend of March 21-22. I'll definitely be attending more single handed cutting events I can make. I actually have someone from my club going down there to your event, I wish I could make it down! It is always a pleasure to watch how cleanly and skillfully you cut.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Feb 18, 2020 6:42:11 GMT
So, learned the rules and set up for this on the fly, and by that I mean as I was doing my fly as between standing near it and using the restroom is started and was well into effect when I returned lol. Almost got DQ'd, used to about 32 - 34", 36" of blade and an overextended cut number 2 with poor recovery planted the foible into the ground and got a bad mark. Overall, it was fun, I didn't place as place as bad as I thought I would and of course it's always a joy to wack tatami. Hi Jordan!
I saw part of that cutting at the event. I didn't realize it was you. Wish we had a chance to talk at the event.
That was an interesting tournament. One of only a few single hand cutting contests so far within the HEMA community and the first at SoCal Swordfight.
You did well! I hope to see you at future events.
BTW... my tournament, the Valley of the Sun Cutting Tournaments, will take place the weekend of March 21-22. What do you think are the characteristics of an optimal single handed Euro sword for tatami cutting competition? Which of the Oakeshott typology? Great reason to go to Az. for me. swordfightaz.com/vots-cutting-tournaments
|
|
Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,451
|
Post by Aikidoka on Feb 18, 2020 7:24:52 GMT
Hi Jordan!
I saw part of that cutting at the event. I didn't realize it was you. Wish we had a chance to talk at the event.
That was an interesting tournament. One of only a few single hand cutting contests so far within the HEMA community and the first at SoCal Swordfight.
You did well! I hope to see you at future events.
BTW... my tournament, the Valley of the Sun Cutting Tournaments, will take place the weekend of March 21-22. What do you think are the characteristics of an optimal single handed Euro sword for tatami cutting competition? Which of the Oakeshott typology? Great reason to go to Az. for me. swordfightaz.com/vots-cutting-tournamentsThat's a great question. My experience leads me to say that it is completely dependent upon the cutting feats in the tournament.
Your question specifically states "tatami cutting competition". If that is all there will be, then a dedicated cutting sword would do very well.
For example, the Albion Vigil (Oakeshott type X) is an exceptional cutting sword. Amazing actually... it is so thin and wide and yet it will handle quick cut combinations with no issue, even though it flexes a fair amount during the cuts. East coast cutting champion Karl Bolle used this sword to win a gold medal at the 2016 CombatCon that I attended. Here is a cutting video of mine where you can see its cutting performance and flexibility:
However, if the tournament will involve dedicated thrusting challenges in addition to the tatami cutting, a thrust and cut arming sword would be more appropriate. That was the case at this SoCal Swordfight single hand tournament. So I chose a sword that was capable of both cutting and thrusting. Specifically, I chose three particular feats as the defining criteria for the sword that I would use:
1. It would need to thrust well, even through cloth covered targets. (this was not needed for SoCal, but I assumed it could have been)
2. It would need to be sharp enough to cut though many layers of tough fabric.
3. It would need to be able to cut a substantial target (double roll mat).
The sword that I eventually chose was my Valiant Armoury Monarch (Oakeshott type XVIII), which was based on an old ATrim 1557 blade design. It is stout, with good blade presence, and an effective thrusting tip. Once I sharpened the blade sufficiently, it served me well during this tournament.
Having said that... your question was in regard to single hand weapons, not just arming swords. The SoCal Swordfight tournament organizers recommended a good arming sword for this contest, but messers almost beat my arming sword. The silver and bronze medals were won with messers. And the event organizers were as surprised as anyone with the messer's thrusting capability.
My event will have an arming sword only tournament and a saber only challenge. So the choice of weapon type is clear. But the feats will still dictate whether a predominately cut oriented sword is the best choice, or if a thrust and cut sword is the better choice.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Feb 18, 2020 7:47:09 GMT
What do you think are the characteristics of an optimal single handed Euro sword for tatami cutting competition? Which of the Oakeshott typology? Great reason to go to Az. for me. swordfightaz.com/vots-cutting-tournamentsThat's a great question. My experience leads me to say that it is completely dependent upon the cutting feats in the tournament.
Your question specifically states "tatami cutting competition". If that is all there will be, then a dedicated cutting sword would do very well.
For example, the Albion Vigil is an exceptional cutting sword. Amazing actually... it is so thin and wide and yet it will handle quick cut combinations with no issue, even though it flexes a fair amount during the cuts. East coast cutting champion Karl Bolle used this sword to win a gold medal at the 2016 CombatCon that I attended. Here is a cutting video of mine where you can see its cutting performance and flexibility:
However, if the tournament will involve dedicated thrusting challenges in addition to the tatami cutting, a thrust and cut arming sword would be more appropriate. That was the case at this SoCal Swordfight single hand tournament. So I chose a sword that was capable of both cutting and thrusting. Specifically, I chose three particular feats as the defining criteria for the sword that I would use:
1. It would need to thrust well, even through cloth covered targets. (this was not needed for SoCal, but I assumed it could have been)
2. It would need to be sharp enough to cut though many layers of tough fabric.
3. It would need to be able to cut a substantial target (double roll mat).
The sword that I eventually chose was my Valiant Armoury Monarch, which was based on an old ATrim 1557 blade design. It is stout, with good blade presence, and an effective thrusting tip. Once I sharpened the blade sufficiently, it served me well during this tournament.
Having said that... your question was in regard to single hand weapons, not just arming swords. The SoCal Swordfight tournament organizers recommended a good arming sword for this contest, but messers almost beat my arming sword. The silver and bronze medals were won with messers. And the event organizers were as surprised as anyone with the messer's thrusting capability.
My event will have an arming sword only tournament and a saber only challenge. So the choice of weapon type is clear. But the feats will still dictate whether a predominately cut oriented sword is the best choice, or if a thrust and cut sword is the better choice.
So far, with my limited experience with Euro swords, I would be inclined to look at the viking type blades (I would use my Albion Huskarl) as optimal for single hand cutting sequences in tatami. They are pure cutters with grips designed for great control on the cut and with some technique and strength could thrust thru a single rolled tatami mat without too much difficulty. I am thinking my Alexandria for open / long sword cutting. I do own a Vigil as well as Solingen, Knight, Sovereign and a monster of a type XII/XIV by Mateusz Sulwoski. Just trying to decide which to try first.
|
|
Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,451
|
Post by Aikidoka on Feb 18, 2020 7:59:49 GMT
I am a big fan of Viking swords. But they are not applicable to HEMA events and so would not be allowed at tournaments that require medieval or renaissance weapons. There are no manuals or treatises for Viking weapons, so sadly they are not included in these events.
They are devastating weapons and their use is a particular interest of mine. Perhaps with enough interest, there will be Viking sword cutting tournaments in the future.
The Huskarl is a gorgeous sword and a fierce cutter. I love my Albion Hersir. I performed by far my cleaned double mat double cut with that sword:
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Feb 18, 2020 8:03:50 GMT
I am a big fan of Viking swords. But they are not applicable to HEMA events and so would not be allowed at tournaments that require medieval or renaissance weapons. Good to know. It for what it's worth, I reviewed the rules for cutting at So California Swordfight 2020, CombatCon 2019 and 2020 and there are no sword requirements or restrictions posted in the cutting rules for single handed cutting. Obviously long sword cutting requires a longsword but even that is not defined. Hmmm.....Well I just bought a Vigil this last weekend at Swordfight and have a Tritonia shipping from KOA right now too.. Ill have to try them all and see.
|
|
|
Post by theophilus736 on Feb 18, 2020 9:51:00 GMT
So would you say the type x's are the best cutters then, considering the comparison between the Vigil and Hersir? Strictly speaking for cutting, not cut and thrust.. would you use the Hersir over the Vigil for a cutting comp if a magical treatise showed up from that time period? I sold you the Hersir but was always interested in the Vigil. I'll probably pass if it's just a unique medievally viking sword. Jordan which sword were you using?
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Feb 20, 2020 16:01:11 GMT
I am a big fan of Viking swords. But they are not applicable to HEMA events and so would not be allowed at tournaments that require medieval or renaissance weapons. There are no manuals or treatises for Viking weapons, so sadly they are not included in these events.
They are devastating weapons and their use is a particular interest of mine. Perhaps with enough interest, there will be Viking sword cutting tournaments in the future.
The Huskarl is a gorgeous sword and a fierce cutter. I love my Albion Hersir. I performed by far my cleaned double mat double cut with that sword:
I m curious what your response is to my observation that the rules do not require anything but single hand sword and a long sword and there is no definition of what each is or what "period" of European sword is acceptable for cutting competition...
|
|
Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,451
|
Post by Aikidoka on Feb 20, 2020 16:29:10 GMT
It would depend on the tournament organizer, but in general these are HEMA events and Viking swordsmanship is not HEMA. The reason is that there are no treatises or manuals that describe how these weapons were used. The cutting tournaments at HEMA events are in theory there to support better martial technique with respect to the arts being studied.
All of the HEMA tournaments that I have attended do not allow Viking swords. My tournaments coming up next month are specific to the weapon types (longsword, arming sword and saber). If there is another single hand tournament that allows multiple weapon types, it wouldn't hurt to ask if they would allow Viking swords. But as they are not considered part of HEMA, my guess is that the answer would be no.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Feb 20, 2020 17:06:29 GMT
It would depend on the tournament organizer, but in general these are HEMA events and Viking swordsmanship is not HEMA. The reason is that there are no treatises or manuals that describe how these weapons were used. The cutting tournaments at HEMA events are in theory there to support better martial technique with respect to the arts being studied. All of the HEMA tournaments that I have attended do not allow Viking swords. My tournaments coming up next month are specific to the weapon types (longsword, arming sword and saber). If there is another single hand tournament that allows multiple weapon types, it wouldn't hurt to ask if they would allow Viking swords. But as they are not considered part of HEMA, my guess is that the answer would be no. From what I saw at Swordfight and even in YouTube videos of finals at CombatCon, there appears to be no constantly applied technique at all exhibited in the cutting I witnessed. While there is clearly very established technique in the forms and sparring in HEMA, the cutting side of the house looks a lot more like wack a mole.... I would also suggest that should be a clear definition of acceptable swords for cutting just as there appears to be for sparring events.
|
|
Aikidoka
Member
Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,451
|
Post by Aikidoka on Feb 20, 2020 17:36:23 GMT
Early HEMA tournaments involved many more strikes with the flat of the blade that you see these days. The original purpose of HEMA longsword cutting practice and competitions was to reinforce the practice of cutting with proper edge alignment, and it seems to have had a positive effect. This includes feats that test the ability to deliver the variety false edge cuts with good edge alignment. Scoring in these tournaments are heavily focused on cut quality, accuracy and form deductions. At this tournament, in addition to examining the mat for signs of cut quality and accuracy (scalloped cuts, mountains, etc...), RJ uses the concentric rings to help communicate to the crowd and competitors whether or not the cut was clean. If the mat piece flies away from the stand, something was wrong with the execution of the cut. There are form deductions for a variety of unmartial and unsafe practices (cocking the sword back in the same line of the cut prior to the cut, over committing to the point of exposing yourself to attack or losing balance, etc... This tournament involved thrusting to an extent that I haven't seen in other tournaments. This was also done at the last Longpoint tournament on the East coast and may be a new permanent facet of these tournament. I like it, although I think there is work to be done as far as developing a better, more consistent thrusting feat.
The single hand tournament was the first I have attended where you could choose your own weapon type. I believe he listed the types (arming sword, falchion, messer, saber), but typically the type of sword is clearly defined for these tournaments. Most tournaments have a list of acceptable swordmakers, and state that other swords will be subject to the approval of the organizer after an inspection.
|
|