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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 20, 2020 17:43:05 GMT
I would argue that the very reason we need tournaments and meetings such as this is to mutually improve the art in every category- including cutting technique. As time goes on and as people learn from each other, I believe you will see a measurable improvement in the cutting abilities of the participants.
JSA is ahead in this area simply because the cutting art was never really lost and had to be rediscovered. There are certain things you simply cannot learn from a book. Things such as "feel" may never be learned without a teacher. It will be interesting to compare the same competition 10 years from now with the vids of today, just to see how far it has advanced.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 20, 2020 17:45:48 GMT
Early HEMA tournaments involved many more strikes with the flat of the blade that you see these days. The original purpose of HEMA longsword cutting practice and competitions was to reinforce the practice of cutting with proper edge alignment, and it seems to have had a positive effect. This includes feats that test the ability to deliver the variety false edge cuts with good edge alignment. Scoring in these tournaments are heavily focused on cut quality, accuracy and form deductions. At this tournament, in addition to examining the mat for signs of cut quality and accuracy (scalloped cuts, mountains, etc...), RJ uses the concentric rings to help communicate to the crowd and competitors whether or not the cut was clean. If the mat piece flies away from the stand, something was wrong with the execution of the cut. There are form deductions for a variety of unmartial and unsafe practices (cocking the sword back in the same line of the cut prior to the cut, over committing to the point of exposing yourself to attack or losing balance, etc... This tournament involved thrusting to an extent that I haven't seen in other tournaments. This was also done at the last Longpoint tournament on the East coast and may be a new permanent facet of these tournament. I like it, although I think there is work to be done as far as developing a better, more consistent thrusting feat. The single hand tournament was the first I have attended where you could choose your own weapon type. I believe he listed the types (arming sword, falchion, messer, saber), but typically the type of sword is clearly defined for these tournaments. Most tournaments have a list of acceptable swordmakers, and state that other swords will be subject to the approval of the organizer after an inspection. Are there "treatises or manuals" that describe how falchion's were used???
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Aikidoka
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Monstrous monk in training...
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Post by Aikidoka on Feb 20, 2020 17:58:53 GMT
Early HEMA tournaments involved many more strikes with the flat of the blade that you see these days. The original purpose of HEMA longsword cutting practice and competitions was to reinforce the practice of cutting with proper edge alignment, and it seems to have had a positive effect. This includes feats that test the ability to deliver the variety false edge cuts with good edge alignment. Scoring in these tournaments are heavily focused on cut quality, accuracy and form deductions. At this tournament, in addition to examining the mat for signs of cut quality and accuracy (scalloped cuts, mountains, etc...), RJ uses the concentric rings to help communicate to the crowd and competitors whether or not the cut was clean. If the mat piece flies away from the stand, something was wrong with the execution of the cut. There are form deductions for a variety of unmartial and unsafe practices (cocking the sword back in the same line of the cut prior to the cut, over committing to the point of exposing yourself to attack or losing balance, etc... This tournament involved thrusting to an extent that I haven't seen in other tournaments. This was also done at the last Longpoint tournament on the East coast and may be a new permanent facet of these tournament. I like it, although I think there is work to be done as far as developing a better, more consistent thrusting feat. The single hand tournament was the first I have attended where you could choose your own weapon type. I believe he listed the types (arming sword, falchion, messer, saber), but typically the type of sword is clearly defined for these tournaments. Most tournaments have a list of acceptable swordmakers, and state that other swords will be subject to the approval of the organizer after an inspection. Are there "treatises or manuals" that describe how falchion's were used??? Nope. Apologies... I just checked the rules and falchions were not listed. Acceptable swords were: arming swords, sabers, messers, rapiers, sideswords and smallswords (good luck!) Here is a link to the specifics of these tournaments that were sent out before the event: l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1kjKm3ruV_Gn39R5sFSU6xAp_4OPTVCMlHfjwxYTGzz0%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing%26fbclid%3DIwAR0YRuBR7sLMEJINa_aHRg9w3uTQWdncCCD06B8r-eYDb-7ACrqZngmtlCE&h=AT15-J9URd2Ka9CUBJgpGfuHoARIoTAC6NgzfNGIp98zPfsRRPQuaSIWPjx_tqZsPmM86QdhI36R-lFoUbKBpp5AtO0iQbak_JtJuv3294g22oL5CQbE5oNfkofbGtWF3A
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 20, 2020 18:42:30 GMT
I am not trying to be difficult.. just want to understand the rules....and the compelte quote; "Acceptable Swords Any single handed sword, which is representative of a common historical European type, will be allowed in this competition." I would postulate that the Viking swords are in fact a "common historical type" used well beyond the migration era and into the middle ages, often re-hilted several times with more modern furniture, and therefore an organization named " Historical European Martial Arts" would include those practiced by the Vikings. Unless you are claiming the vikings were not Europeans or you only support those specific swords used in the treatises and manuals you referenced. As cutting competition takes off, HEMA is going to have to tighten these things up. A viking sword, and a falchion were both historical European blades. The JSA community has it easy in this regard.. a katana is a katana with regard to basic blade shape/length etc.. and acceptable characteristics are pretty well regulated within each Ryu-ha.
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Aikidoka
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Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,451
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Post by Aikidoka on Feb 20, 2020 18:49:57 GMT
I would argue that the very reason we need tournaments and meetings such as this is to mutually improve the art in every category- including cutting technique. As time goes on and as people learn from each other, I believe you will see a measurable improvement in the cutting abilities of the participants. JSA is ahead in this area simply because the cutting art was never really lost and had to be rediscovered. There are certain things you simply cannot learn from a book. Things such as "feel" may never be learned without a teacher. It will be interesting to compare the same competition 10 years from now with the vids of today, just to see how far it has advanced. Yes. Mike Edelson was having a FB discussion yesterday regarding appropriate longswords for these cutting competitions, and he mentioned that we have been doing these competitions for 8 years. Only 8 years... Each year has been part of the iterative process of improving and adapting these tournaments to best suit these arts. RJ made the comment this weekend that the feats that the open level competitors were doing this year were the same feats that competitors were asked to do in the advanced tournament a couple of years ago. I agree that it will be very interesting to see how these tournaments develop over the next decade or so.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 21, 2020 2:01:03 GMT
Yes. Mike Edelson was having a FB discussion yesterday regarding appropriate longswords for these cutting competitions, and he mentioned that we have been doing these competitions for 8 years. Only 8 years... Each year has been part of the iterative process of improving and adapting these tournaments to best suit these arts. RJ made the comment this weekend that the feats that the open level competitors were doing this year were the same feats that competitors were asked to do in the advanced tournament a couple of years ago. I agree that it will be very interesting to see how these tournaments develop over the next decade or so. It would also be worth considering that a competitor when entering / signing up for a cutting event be made to "declare his weapon" so that it cant be changed out between cutting / thrusting competitions. Cutters should declare their one long sword and one single hand before ever stepping into the ring.
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Aikidoka
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Monstrous monk in training...
Posts: 1,451
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Post by Aikidoka on Feb 21, 2020 2:13:34 GMT
Yes. Mike Edelson was having a FB discussion yesterday regarding appropriate longswords for these cutting competitions, and he mentioned that we have been doing these competitions for 8 years. Only 8 years... Each year has been part of the iterative process of improving and adapting these tournaments to best suit these arts. RJ made the comment this weekend that the feats that the open level competitors were doing this year were the same feats that competitors were asked to do in the advanced tournament a couple of years ago. I agree that it will be very interesting to see how these tournaments develop over the next decade or so. It would also be worth considering that a competitor when entering / signing up for a cutting event be made to "declare his weapon" so that it cant be changed out between cutting / thrusting competitions. Cutters should declare their one long sword and one single hand before ever stepping into the ring. Absolutely agree. That was a rule this year for the single hand tournament (once you started with a weapon, you stuck with it), so people couldn't use a specialized weapon for one feat and then another weapon for another feat. I can't recall ever seeing anyone switch weapons in a cutting tournament, but I agree there should be a rule to prevent it.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 21, 2020 2:45:15 GMT
It would also be worth considering that a competitor when entering / signing up for a cutting event be made to "declare his weapon" so that it cant be changed out between cutting / thrusting competitions. Cutters should declare their one long sword and one single hand before ever stepping into the ring. Absolutely agree. That was a rule this year for the single hand tournament (once you started with a weapon, you stuck with it), so people couldn't use a specialized weapon for one feat and then another weapon for another feat. I can't recall ever seeing anyone switch weapons in a cutting tournament, but I agree there should be a rule to prevent it. Yup...given the wide variety of sword blades and hilts that give specialty advantage in different missions, it would be best, just to be fair, that everyone has to declare their one/two/three blades by manufacturer and type when registering.
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