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Post by pvsampson on Feb 3, 2020 23:35:36 GMT
I have been seeing quite a lot of Tenshin videos getting around various FB pages, with the most common repost being the kata in the snow. I also note that several that practice koryu really hate those Tenshin people criticizing every chance they get. Should not any martial training that focuses on katana techniques be accepted and not denigrated. In the 21st century is their really any need to be so biased against any style that was not developed centuries ago? What do these koryu think about Toyama? They knock Tenshin but not Toyama,so why?
Whilst training Southern Mantis kung fu,my sifu taught the strict traditional martial style but also we trained techniques based on the strict but modified to be more fluid and mobile to be relevant for 21st century fighting styles. Try standing square on to any decent boxer with any kung fu without being mobile and fluid and see what happens,movies are full of sh$t.
So what is wrong with Tenshin as a modern take on ancient techniques?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 3, 2020 23:59:02 GMT
Nothing at all wrong with it from what I see. Are the critics authentic Japanese samurai? If not, then why take them seriously when they demand purity?
It's the year 2020,not 1643. Nobody fights with a sword nowadays. Give it a rest. Pull a sword in a fight today and you're gonna find out the other guy knows Gun Fu... probably S&W style from the 9mm school of ching-chik pow.
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Post by pvsampson on Feb 4, 2020 0:30:14 GMT
My thoughts are along those lines too,apart from the guns as they are not part of equation here.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 4, 2020 1:10:27 GMT
I'm only saying that elevating yourself by pointing out how others aren't "authentic" while NOT being authentic yourself is rather dishonest. I think all styles of MA have at least some merit. And if studying a style brings pleasure to the practitioner, then who am I to say they are wrong? And didn't Bruce Lee show us that blending styles is very effective?
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 4, 2020 3:42:36 GMT
I have been seeing quite a lot of Tenshin videos getting around various FB pages, with the most common repost being the kata in the snow. I also note that several that practice koryu really hate those Tenshin people criticizing every chance they get. Should not any martial training that focuses on katana techniques be accepted and not denigrated. In the 21st century is their really any need to be so biased against any style that was not developed centuries ago? What do these koryu think about Toyama? They knock Tenshin but not Toyama,so why? Whilst training Southern Mantis kung fu,my sifu taught the strict traditional martial style but also we trained techniques based on the strict but modified to be more fluid and mobile to be relevant for 21st century fighting styles. Try standing square on to any decent boxer with any kung fu without being mobile and fluid and see what happens,movies are full of sh$t. So what is wrong with Tenshin as a modern take on ancient techniques? You really are not aware of the intense and childish jealousy within all the branches of each Ryu-ha as well as between the various Ryu-ha? The petty politics of the Japanese martial arts community is one of the reasons I stopped training. |
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Post by pvsampson on Feb 4, 2020 3:58:09 GMT
I have been seeing quite a lot of Tenshin videos getting around various FB pages, with the most common repost being the kata in the snow. I also note that several that practice koryu really hate those Tenshin people criticizing every chance they get. Should not any martial training that focuses on katana techniques be accepted and not denigrated. In the 21st century is their really any need to be so biased against any style that was not developed centuries ago? What do these koryu think about Toyama? They knock Tenshin but not Toyama,so why? Whilst training Southern Mantis kung fu,my sifu taught the strict traditional martial style but also we trained techniques based on the strict but modified to be more fluid and mobile to be relevant for 21st century fighting styles. Try standing square on to any decent boxer with any kung fu without being mobile and fluid and see what happens,movies are full of sh$t. So what is wrong with Tenshin as a modern take on ancient techniques? You really are not aware of the intense and childish jealousy within all the branches of each Ryu-ha as well as between the various Ryu-ha? The petty politics of the Japanese martial arts community is one of the reasons I stopped training. Not really but I am starting to see that it is there. There are some pages I visit occasionally that are pretty supportive of each other but they all collectively attack Tenshin and have even seen claims that it is not true koryu. I suppose it makes sense as I have experienced the rivalry within the MA community in the area I live. |
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 4, 2020 4:01:06 GMT
You really are not aware of the intense and childish jealousy within all the branches of each Ryu-ha as well as between the various Ryu-ha? The petty politics of the Japanese martial arts community is one of the reasons I stopped training. Not really but I am starting to see that it is there. There are some pages I visit occasionally that are pretty supportive of each other but they all collectively attack Tenshin and have even seen claims that it is not true koryu. I suppose it makes sense as I have experienced the rivalry within the MA community in the area I live. Get used to it, accept it and ignore it...that's my only advice. |
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Post by pvsampson on Feb 4, 2020 4:16:57 GMT
Not really but I am starting to see that it is there. There are some pages I visit occasionally that are pretty supportive of each other but they all collectively attack Tenshin and have even seen claims that it is not true koryu. I suppose it makes sense as I have experienced the rivalry within the MA community in the area I live. Get used to it, accept it and ignore it...that's my only advice. Doesn't worry me I do my thing. I did not quite achieve what I wanted to with my original post. A lot of the "hate" on Tenshin seems to be that they are a modern choreographed show style,and not a true koryu. But, Kuwami Masakumo is good. Very quick,smooth and yeah,pretty to watch. He has charisma,and on vids that I see him with students I can see him explaining every little detail of technique and is relaxed whilst doing so. So much that even though it is Japanese,I can understand and follow what he is trying to convey. The body movement and the nuances of those movements and why those movements are performed. He has a strong connection with his students through the teaching style. My sifu did that. Explained why and what the result is and the subtleties,not just stand there and say "do this because this is how it is done and it is how I was taught it is done". I think that the Tenshin style of teaching and training is what is so appealing to 21st century students. Not the harsh martiality that belongs in the 17th century. |
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 4, 2020 4:24:33 GMT
Get used to it, accept it and ignore it...that's my only advice. I think that the Tenshin style of teaching and training is what is so appealing to 21st century students. Not the harsh martiality that belongs in the 17th century. But, but....thats not Budo / Bushido....  |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 4, 2020 18:56:07 GMT
I think there is plenty enough room in our modern world to encompass and encourage ALL styles of MA. The way I see it, anybody that is interested in getting up off the couch, moving around, learning something, getting healthy in body and mind...then I support that. The style they choose doesn't matter. The truth is that if they stay with it, they will eventually want to study other styles. Why would I discourage anybody from trying to learn something? Why would an MA school do that? To give somebody a bitter reception because the don't study what you think is best may just turn that person off to MA completely. What good is that?
Sure, I've seen some styles that in my mind I thought was utter bunko, but again, if it involves people liking it enough to move around and exercise, then it has at least that much merit and I approve of it. Too much infighting and arrogance for a sport that is supposed to be based on humility and self-control.
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Post by vecna808 on Feb 4, 2020 19:46:04 GMT
I do not know either school ( video links anyone ? ) but maybe honesty is best policy, which very few shools are.
Not one traditional MA scool have visited has stated what the objectives of that school has been, and what exactly I am there to learn.
Is it a sport, a form of self defence, a set of actions to raise body and spirt, a place to visit to meet friends ? In all cases I never asked and no one said nothing, its straight into warmup then learning stuff.
I had to work out what was doing there as I went along, fine, but a huge waste of time for everybody concerned if what you are learning is not what you wanted when you got there.
The non-traditional MA schools seem much better, if you do not why you are at a MMA club there is something wrong with you, and if by chance you do not get it, its demonstrated real quick. ( you are there to destroy your opponent whichever way you can ).
Likewise with HEMA.
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Post by bradc on Feb 4, 2020 20:59:10 GMT
As someone from a traditional JSA. I beleive THE major source of the criticism is the claims of being a koryu. There is little documentation on Tenshin Ryu hyoho other than their own. Internet suspicions are that, IF it was a koryu, it almost disappeared and was resurrected by the current group. So how much is modern reconstruction? I have no idea, and I dont beleive anyone else does either...
Given that many koryu are "living history" dedicating themselves to preserving the exact techniques and teachings of old (yes, I very much appreciate the irony and problems in what I am writing) they tend to get touchy with potentially false claims. So I view it similar to the irritation when people use "nihonto" for non Japanese swords, or claim Greedo shot first.
I have to praise their marketing. They have come from apparently nowhere to be more recognized than many traditional forms. I'm sure that irritates some as well... (I'm just jealous).
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Post by pvsampson on Feb 4, 2020 23:24:12 GMT
I do not know either school ( video links anyone ? ) but maybe honesty is best policy, which very few shools are. Not one traditional MA scool have visited has stated what the objectives of that school has been, and what exactly I am there to learn. Is it a sport, a form of self defence, a set of actions to raise body and spirt, a place to visit to meet friends ? In all cases I never asked and no one said nothing, its straight into warmup then learning stuff. I had to work out what was doing there as I went along, fine, but a huge waste of time for everybody concerned if what you are learning is not what you wanted when you got there. The non-traditional MA schools seem much better, if you do not why you are at a MMA club there is something wrong with you, and if by chance you do not get it, its demonstrated real quick. ( you are there to destroy your opponent whichever way you can ). Likewise with HEMA. The winter vid that has been getting posted three times a week at least A reporter fawning over and interviewing Kuwami Masakumo There are plenty of other vids available. |
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Post by Google on Feb 7, 2020 19:22:52 GMT
The problem with tenshin ryu is that they are a contemporary school that claims to be koryu. If they want to be a modern school with fancy tfilm techniques, good for them. I just don't like it when people lie. That is the difference between tenshin ryu and toyama ryu.
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Post by pvsampson on Feb 7, 2020 20:21:27 GMT
The problem with tenshin ryu is that they are a contemporary school that claims to be koryu. If they want to be a modern school with fancy tfilm techniques, good for them. I just don't like it when people lie. That is the difference between tenshin ryu and toyama ryu. But,Toyama is not considered koryu? |
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Post by bradc on Feb 7, 2020 20:26:21 GMT
The problem with tenshin ryu is that they are a contemporary school that claims to be koryu. If they want to be a modern school with fancy tfilm techniques, good for them. I just don't like it when people lie. That is the difference between tenshin ryu and toyama ryu. But,Toyama is not considered koryu? Key is they do not claim to be koryu. Toyam ryu is very open and honest about its history which derives from koryu but is a modern assembly. |
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 7, 2020 22:56:25 GMT
But,Toyama is not considered koryu? Key is they do not claim to be koryu. Toyam ryu is very open and honest about its history which derives from koryu but is a modern assembly. IMHO, some of the "koryu" have so split their linages, changed their kata since Meiji, and modified, restructured, reorganized, redone and repackaged everything for sale in the West since WW II, that I'm not sure that they deserve the name anymore, either. One of the attractions of joining a koryu is the naive expectation that you'll learn an authentic samurai tradition.
Come to think of it, watching your leadership making asses of themselves feuding over who's the soke does have an authentic savor of Sengoku-jidai Japan about it. Pity they never settle it with a duel. 
Sorry, go back to your discussion. I was just venting about a general annoyance with the budo business.  |
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Post by pvsampson on Feb 7, 2020 23:24:34 GMT
But,Toyama is not considered koryu? Key is they do not claim to be koryu. Toyam ryu is very open and honest about its history which derives from koryu but is a modern assembly. Fair enough. Key is they do not claim to be koryu. Toyam ryu is very open and honest about its history which derives from koryu but is a modern assembly. IMHO, some of the "koryu" have so split their linages, changed their kata since Meiji, and modified, restructured, reorganized, redone and repackaged everything for sale in the West since WW II, that I'm not sure that they deserve the name anymore, either. One of the attractions of joining a koryu is the naive expectation that you'll learn an authentic samurai tradition.
Come to think of it, watching your leadership making asses of themselves fighting over who's the soke does have an authentic savor of Sengoku-jidai Japan about it. Pity they never settle it with a duel. I know it is not possible,but it would be interesting to compare modern training methods with actual methods of ,for instance, 1650. Koryu claim to be authentic but honestly how authentic are they truly?What guarantee is there that every style has not changed? Can we honestly state that any soke now is teaching/training exactly the same that he was taught,or that his soke was doing exactly the same as he was taught,etc. all down the line.
No we can't.There are too many variables that have occurred over literally centuries to be able to state that the training is exactly the same. Even the psychological aspect has changed dramatically. Living under a shogunate is vastly different to living in Japan now. As an example,I can watch four different videos of four different sensei of Toyama kata,and there are specific differences in the performance of those kata,yet the basic techniques remain. If there can be variations in that few of a selection of examples then surely there has been many,many changes in the koru over the years. So,as treeslicer suggests/infers,can koryu actually claim to be direct and actual unbroken training methods from pre Meiji period? |
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Post by bradc on Feb 8, 2020 0:14:09 GMT
Key is they do not claim to be koryu. Toyam ryu is very open and honest about its history which derives from koryu but is a modern assembly. IMHO, some of the "koryu" have so split their linages, changed their kata since Meiji, and modified, restructured, reorganized, redone and repackaged everything for sale in the West since WW II, that I'm not sure that they deserve the name anymore, either. One of the attractions of joining a koryu is the naive expectation that you'll learn an authentic samurai tradition.
Come to think of it, watching your leadership making asses of themselves feuding over who's the soke does have an authentic savor of Sengoku-jidai Japan about it. Pity they never settle it with a duel.
Sorry, go back to your discussion. I was just venting about a general annoyance with the budo business. Touché... |
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Post by bradc on Feb 8, 2020 0:39:56 GMT
Key is they do not claim to be koryu. Toyam ryu is very open and honest about its history which derives from koryu but is a modern assembly. Fair enough. IMHO, some of the "koryu" have so split their linages, changed their kata since Meiji, and modified, restructured, reorganized, redone and repackaged everything for sale in the West since WW II, that I'm not sure that they deserve the name anymore, either. One of the attractions of joining a koryu is the naive expectation that you'll learn an authentic samurai tradition.
Come to think of it, watching your leadership making asses of themselves fighting over who's the soke does have an authentic savor of Sengoku-jidai Japan about it. Pity they never settle it with a duel. I know it is not possible,but it would be interesting to compare modern training methods with actual methods of ,for instance, 1650. Koryu claim to be authentic but honestly how authentic are they truly?What guarantee is there that every style has not changed? Can we honestly state that any soke now is teaching/training exactly the same that he was taught,or that his soke was doing exactly the same as he was taught,etc. all down the line.
No we can't.There are too many variables that have occurred over literally centuries to be able to state that the training is exactly the same. Even the psychological aspect has changed dramatically. Living under a shogunate is vastly different to living in Japan now. As an example,I can watch four different videos of four different sensei of Toyama kata,and there are specific differences in the performance of those kata,yet the basic techniques remain. If there can be variations in that few of a selection of examples then surely there has been many,many changes in the koru over the years. So,can koryu actually claim to be direct and actual unbroken training methods from pre Meiji period? I think we can claim unbroken lineages (a split isn't a break per se... ), but unbroken exact methods seem pretty unlikely. This is history passed down by people with all our flaws. If I watch several different Eishin ryu schools I see many differences in the details, but there is a common core to the waza that suggests something has been preserved. And if were going to get picky (I am) Iaido is simply the drawing and cutting together part, everything else is window dressing (perhaps more accurately kenjitsu) so variation can still preserve the core of the koryu. Even within a school I have seen waza "evolve" (devolve?) over time, but it's always complex to figure out if it's a correction to how it was taught by a an intermediate person, or is it a change at the higher levels moving closer to or further from the past? I'm way to low on the totem pole for that knowledge. Anyway I guess I'm saying it's complicated. I like to believe that most of the more recent splits in lineages are people who truly believe they are doing what is right. If you think our arguments over sword brands get intense imagine disagreeing on what you have dedicated your life to (ok maybe some of us have dedicated our lives to swords). Now of course one has to acknowledge that some of the splits are going to be petty egos, which is silly as no ones dueling so we aren't testing these things anymore. I just wish that more of us could accept that variation is fine between schools and just admit that we all have a weird hobby in common and perhaps we could learn something from listening to each other (even if it doesn't change our practice). |
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