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Post by Google on Feb 8, 2020 13:27:29 GMT
The problem with tenshin ryu is that they are a contemporary school that claims to be koryu. If they want to be a modern school with fancy tfilm techniques, good for them. I just don't like it when people lie. That is the difference between tenshin ryu and toyama ryu. But,Toyama is not considered koryu? No, they are gendai budo through and through. |
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Post by Google on Feb 8, 2020 13:35:23 GMT
Is ferrari the same as it was when they estabished? Is england the same as it was in 1300? Yes, and no. Yes, koryu is direct transmission in ubroken line, from teacher to student. No, it's not a copy-paste of the generations before. Change is inevitable, but the lineage, this unbroken line, is impossible to replace. You're either a part of it, or you're not. Claiming to be while not, is literally faking an antique.
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Post by hkronin on Feb 9, 2021 6:08:52 GMT
All documentation aside, movement is either good or it isn’t. And these guys move well. I see a lot of either directly criticizing or patronizing language about their “flashy” technique, implying that it doesn’t have substance, but I would have to disagree. Whether koryu or gendai, these guys move well with balance, centerline power, quality timing, and clean technique. I haven’t seen much from them in the sense of “flashy” techniques that have no purpose or riai. Yes, they move with speed, but not at the sacrifice of quality. I’m as curious as anyone where their lineage comes from, but my eyes tell me they are legit.
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Post by Student of Sword on May 28, 2021 14:38:20 GMT
They are more like HEMA than Koryu. Reconstructed.
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tera
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Post by tera on May 28, 2021 16:23:59 GMT
I was initially dubious, but have come to accept and welcome Tenshin Ryu. The techniques seem situationally applicable and efficient. Regardless of whether or not it is koryu, that works for me.
It's like comparing how we originally taught how to use the M-16A1 to modern 3-gunners. Modern technique built upon the original and is more accurate and efficient for it's purpose.
I see they have paid online instruction. It looks like the tier that allows you to submit video for instructor critique is $100/month. I never paid more than $60/month for an in person dojo, so unless that is a stellar experience they may be pricing themselves out of the market. Anybody signed up for this to see what it's like? I'm likewise dubious of not having an in-person instructor, but try to keep an open mind.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 3:22:39 GMT
Kinda reminds me of anime or martial arts movies, they way they move, and I feel like it's deliberate like that Battoujutsu or whatever it was called. No one fights with swords so it really doesn't matter, but I can see why it's looked down on in today's era that values authenticity and practicality, as opposed to learning how to pose with swords, which is only useful for the film industry (well, until the desire for realistic sword fights becomes prominent enough).
There is a sense of irony though, considering so many of today's martial arts have fallen victim to sport rather than authentic martial arts. But this isn't a hill I would die on defending either lol
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tera
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Post by tera on May 29, 2021 17:45:19 GMT
Kinda reminds me of anime or martial arts movies, they way they move, and I feel like it's deliberate like that Battoujutsu or whatever it was called. No one fights with swords so it really doesn't matter, but I can see why it's looked down on in today's era that values authenticity and practicality, as opposed to learning how to pose with swords, which is only useful for the film industry (well, until the desire for realistic sword fights becomes prominent enough). There is a sense of irony though, considering so many of today's martial arts have fallen victim to sport rather than authentic martial arts. But this isn't a hill I would die on defending either lol I agree. Reflecting on Tenshin Ryu made me remember the saying about glass houses. Both Japanese hand-to-hand systems I've studied are new enough to have black and white photos of the founder of the art. The Iaido school's introductory kata begins each sequence in seiza with your To in your belt. When would a Samurai have sat, indoors, with their longsword still through the belt? That's a cultural incongruity. The 'posing' all seems practical to minimize movement to full draw and allow rapid repositioning of the body by springing off of one of two 'loaded' feet. I honestly feel it looks a little more silly than cool, but if it is efficient I get it. I suppose it is 'cool' in the same way revolver speed-shooters have a particular tilt to the hip and position of the hand. They aid in a more rapid clear of the muzzle and alignment of dominant eye over the hip to aid in point-shooting. Battoujutsu and speed-gun tecghniques seem to have similar goals. Biomechanical efficiency to increase speed. To traditional hunters/marksmen/swordsmen the results look funky, but who cares? A 'traditional' hunter may scoff at a 3-gunner, but what will get you a buck at distances most people hunt won't keep you on target at 1000 yards, nor be suited for anything that shoots back. |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 23:10:38 GMT
Kinda reminds me of anime or martial arts movies, they way they move, and I feel like it's deliberate like that Battoujutsu or whatever it was called. No one fights with swords so it really doesn't matter, but I can see why it's looked down on in today's era that values authenticity and practicality, as opposed to learning how to pose with swords, which is only useful for the film industry (well, until the desire for realistic sword fights becomes prominent enough). There is a sense of irony though, considering so many of today's martial arts have fallen victim to sport rather than authentic martial arts. But this isn't a hill I would die on defending either lol I agree. Reflecting on Tenshin Ryu made me remember the saying about glass houses. Both Japanese hand-to-hand systems I've studied are new enough to have black and white photos of the founder of the art. The Iaido school's introductory kata begins each sequence in seiza with your To in your belt. When would a Samurai have sat, indoors, with their longsword still through the belt? That's a cultural incongruity. The 'posing' all seems practical to minimize movement to full draw and allow rapid repositioning of the body by springing off of one of two 'loaded' feet. I honestly feel it looks a little more silly than cool, but if it is efficient I get it. I suppose it is 'cool' in the same way revolver speed-shooters have a particular tilt to the hip and position of the hand. They aid in a more rapid clear of the muzzle and alignment of dominant eye over the hip to aid in point-shooting. Battoujutsu and speed-gun tecghniques seem to have similar goals. Biomechanical efficiency to increase speed. To traditional hunters/marksmen/swordsmen the results look funky, but who cares? A 'traditional' hunter may scoff at a 3-gunner, but what will get you a buck at distances most people hunt won't keep you on target at 1000 yards, nor be suited for anything that shoots back. Yea that's how I see it. If a person wants to be lars Anderson instead of an Olympic bowman, what difference does it make? Either are out dated forms of weapons, and a hunter has different goals with his bow than both an Olympic archer and lars Anderson What I would like to see is these guys spar. And I don't mean that controlled cr*p Asian arts seem to be full of lately. I always wondered if they are prideful about how it makes their sword art look, when they have a controlled opponent, pausing for three of their one moves. Everytime you see a katana guy spar, who isn't kenjutsu, it's always against a controlled opponent I think thats where the hate comes from. Peope who spar. Sparring is the MMA of sword arts, it has been testing what works and what doesn't and its hard to take the guy seriously who says "im too lethal to use my arts here". But if they are learning this stuff for tameshigiri, I can see it's value. Showmanship is a huge part of that at times. I don't agree that their movements are most efficient tho. I seen a guy drop to a knee after doing a cut lol. Watch Longsword cutters, they barely move at all and make the same cuts work for them. That is what efficiency is Heck, I've seen a little Japanese girl barley move at all to make clean cuts. But still, I'm a sucker for moves right out of the draw, that a lot of these newer arts like to focus on. It looks cool and I can see myself practicing it for that reason. As much as a person can make an unlikely scenario when it would be useful, it's all about looks really. That's how a lot of martial arts are |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 3:52:31 GMT
Decided to watch more of their videos. Most of it seems legit. Reminds me of most other things Ive seen in kenjitsu and iaido. If they had a dojo here I would try it out
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Post by JH Lee on Dec 21, 2021 8:41:02 GMT
Late to the discussion, but I think some of Tenshin's moves are both cleanly executed and may have been quite effective in context for training dexterity, accuracy, etc. Some of their stuff does make me roll my eyes/question how much is just fanciful fluff though. But then again, so does a lot of iaido.
The biggest red flag for me, personally, with any MA is if or when they start talking "chi power" nonsense. Haidong-gumdo, which is a shameless rip-off of JSA, does a bit of that-- which is why I have zero interest in them, regardless of how cool/action movie-like their moves are. As long as no hocus-pocus superstition is involved, I'm much more receptive.
As far as sparring goes, it seems to me that 99% of the videos I've seen have fighters who repeatedly execute very basic strikes that are fundamentally similar across many different systems. Which is not surprising since the human body is finite, after all. Points scored are almost always a matter of timing and distance management rather than the beautiful aiki-ken or whatever the HEMA equivalent would be....
Now, it makes me wonder if that is due to the low utility of such techniques "under pressure" OR if it's the lack of confidence of the swordsmen themselves in said techniques. 🤷🏻♂️
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Post by junesbanunes on Feb 22, 2022 10:13:16 GMT
Key is they do not claim to be koryu. Toyam ryu is very open and honest about its history which derives from koryu but is a modern assembly. Fair enough. IMHO, some of the "koryu" have so split their linages, changed their kata since Meiji, and modified, restructured, reorganized, redone and repackaged everything for sale in the West since WW II, that I'm not sure that they deserve the name anymore, either. One of the attractions of joining a koryu is the naive expectation that you'll learn an authentic samurai tradition.
Come to think of it, watching your leadership making asses of themselves fighting over who's the soke does have an authentic savor of Sengoku-jidai Japan about it. Pity they never settle it with a duel.  I know it is not possible,but it would be interesting to compare modern training methods with actual methods of ,for instance, 1650. Koryu claim to be authentic but honestly how authentic are they truly?What guarantee is there that every style has not changed? Can we honestly state that any soke now is teaching/training exactly the same that he was taught,or that his soke was doing exactly the same as he was taught,etc. all down the line.
No we can't.There are too many variables that have occurred over literally centuries to be able to state that the training is exactly the same. Even the psychological aspect has changed dramatically. Living under a shogunate is vastly different to living in Japan now. As an example,I can watch four different videos of four different sensei of Toyama kata,and there are specific differences in the performance of those kata,yet the basic techniques remain. If there can be variations in that few of a selection of examples then surely there has been many,many changes in the koru over the years. So,as treeslicer suggests/infers,can koryu actually claim to be direct and actual unbroken training methods from pre Meiji period? In some of the more well documented koryu, like TSKSR there are preserved scrolls that support the authenticity of the kata still practised today. Of course you can't determine much detail and things like speed and tempo but at least the steps and the postures are the same. |
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