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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2008 4:06:41 GMT
I saw a few swords in Records of the Medieval sword that had a feature called a "rain guard"(page 141 type XV) which was a flap of metal that was in front of the guard and went over the mouth of the scabbard. Was this common or necessary? Also, pertaining to swords in general, what would be done if a scabbard got dunked in the water and soaked? I know some uses fleece on the inside which might retain some moisture. Would a warrior have to have a new sheath made or let it dry?
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 3, 2008 4:14:34 GMT
I saw a few swords in Records of the Medieval sword that had a feature called a "rain guard"(page 141 type XV) which was a flap of metal that was in front of the guard and went over the mouth of the scabbard. Was this common or necessary? Also, pertaining to swords in general, what would be done if a scabbard got dunked in the water and soaked? I know some uses fleece on the inside which might retain some moisture. Would a warrior have to have a new sheath made or let it dry? Most rainguards on surviving specimens are leather flaps, though a very few are of metal. Here is a thread that discusses rainguards in detail. www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13139&highlight=rainguardI don't really know, but it would seem that letting the scabbard dry would be likely.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2008 4:58:04 GMT
Thanx. Interesting project idea and could probably cover up some out of place ricassos too. I guess some modern day swords like the fantasy viking and Cold Steel shamshir have the guards extend over the mouth of the scabbard in a decorative fashion perhaps after the original rainguards (although in a decorative purpose not to actually keep out rain). .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2008 5:16:27 GMT
Although I'm far from a historian, the following image shows the use I feel makes most sense for these bits of hilt furniture.
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Post by rammstein on Aug 5, 2008 3:00:05 GMT
The term "rainguard" is a modern term. I'm not sure when it first comes into use but not before the 19th c methinks. And by then, 99% of historical "fact" was based upon false assumptions and uneducated conclusions drawn by those who didn't really have a good hands on look at the items in question. I strongly doubt that rainguards were used to guard from rain. I see only two possible reasons for them, one already demonstrated above by vy (+1 for that, btw) and also simpl fashion. It's not uncommon for styles to emerge on swords and rainguards really only had a few years of popularity.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 5, 2008 3:03:56 GMT
... It's not uncommon for styles to emerge on swords and rainguards really only had a few years of popularity. What years are those?
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Post by rammstein on Aug 5, 2008 3:09:16 GMT
I should go dig that up shoulnd't I ;D
I'll get back to you on that, I have a distinct memory of that being discussed on myarmoury before. Apologies if I don't find it.
IIRC it was 15th-16th c. but that might be off.
edit: I've not found it yet but from looking at examples from different places all that I see are 15th and 16th c specimens.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2008 3:20:19 GMT
Could it have served as both a thumb index and "shock guard" (such as a all in one solution to the thumbpad on the ricasso and the leather behind the guard of the v-42)? It seems both those features could be the same on both, just with the raingaurd continuing to fullfill the role of the thumbpad ricasso.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 5, 2008 17:33:08 GMT
So Ramm... what did you find?
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Post by rammstein on Aug 5, 2008 18:04:48 GMT
Nothing definitive so far, but every example I've found has dated after 1450 and before 1600.
I'm obviously no expert though and I'd prefer to find that hypothesis backed up by something more substantial than my own observations.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 5, 2008 19:34:33 GMT
Take a look in Oakeshott's The Sword in the Age of Chivalry. The earliest sword image shown with this feature in that book is circa 1300. There are lots from 1350 - 1500. And some are shown up into the 1500s. Of the illustrations Oakeshott shows of effigies, brasses and manuscripts with longswords, almost half have "guard chapes" or "rainguards" after 1350. Most seem to be leather, as in color manuscript they almost always seem to be colored to match the grip or to contrast it in colors like green, red, blue etc.
If you take into acount the time period of 1300 - 1600, about half of all the longswords depicted seem to have this feature. Interestingly, I have NEVER seen this feature on an arming sword (single hand grip).
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Post by rammstein on Aug 5, 2008 19:39:43 GMT
Talhoffer's fechtbuch shows rainguards on arming swords.
Where do you see them from 1300? I'm having difficulting finding them before 1500 alone. Can you post pictures? Also, I'm not taking into account swords from 1300 with rainguards added later in their life. There are examples of new rainguards being attatched to old swords - the link posted above shows that.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 5, 2008 19:45:46 GMT
Talhoffer's fechtbuch shows rainguards on arming swords. Where do you see them from 1300? I'm having difficulting finding them before 1500 alone. Can you post pictures? Also, I'm not taking into account swords from 1300 with rainguards added later in their life. There are examples of new rainguards being attatched to old swords - the link posted above shows that. What I was referring to were effigies, brasses and manuscripts that were created in the 1300s. So the rainguards have to be contemporary to that time period. Look in the back half of the book I cited above. Sorry I can't provide the exact citations at the moment. I'm at work and the book is at home. But I looked them up last night after your previous post.
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Post by rammstein on Aug 5, 2008 19:55:57 GMT
Unfortunately I don't possess an extensive library on medieval swords. Oh well, I'll take your word for it. Citations would be helpful if you get a chance!
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Post by rammstein on Aug 5, 2008 20:00:29 GMT
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Aug 5, 2008 20:24:26 GMT
may be rain guards where somthing that the smith would try and sell buyers as an option for custom swords ;D
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 6, 2008 2:24:32 GMT
Unfortunately I don't possess an extensive library on medieval swords. Oh well, I'll take your word for it. Citations would be helpful if you get a chance! OK, I remembered! Here's what I find, just in The Sword in the Age of Chivalry. Fig 26. "Deposition From The Cross" Lucca Cathedral, by Nicola Pisano c 1358-78 Fig 41, From a "Coronation of the Virgin" by Giovanni Bellini, c 1474 (Probably) Fig 65. St George, west front, Freiburg Cathedral, c 1300 Fig 73. Effigy of Bishop Gerhard von Schwarzburg, Wurzburg Cathedral, 1400 (Probably) Fig 77. Effigy of a later Gunther von Schwarzburg, Arnstadt, 1368 Fig 79. Effigy of Sir John Wyard, Meriden, Warwick, 1411 Fig 80. Sword of Pierre de Navarre, Count of Evreux, from a window at Evreux Cathedral, 1390 Fig 89. From a Flemish painting in the Cathedral of St. Sauveur, Bruges 1400 Oakeshott's XV.13 Sword of Estore Visconti, early 1400s, found in the Cathedral at Monza Oakeshott's XVIa.3 Found in Borringholm Denmark, c 1300-25 Oakeshott's XVIIIa.5 in the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum, Munich (basis for the Albion Bayerisches) dated 1450-80 Fig 112. Effigy of Bishop Johannes von Eglofstein, Wursburg Cathedral, 1411 Fig 113. Effigy of Johan Georg von Waldburg, Waldsee, c 1470 Fig 115. From a relief over the north door of Karschau Cathedral, 1360-1400 Fig 117. The Sword of Joab, from the Velislav Bible, c 1380
Those are all just from one book, ranging in dates from 1300 to 1480. But there are a lot of more recent artworks that I haven't cited that date right up through the Rennaissance. So IMO, "rainguards" or "hilt chapes" seem to have been pretty common for most of the high-to-late middle ages. Swordboy could have a point. I could just see this conversation between a cutler and his noble client. "Surely Your Grace might like to add this very stylish of accessories to thy longsword? It is all the rage, and will distinguish thou to both friend and foe alike as a man of impeccable taste and a valiant warrior... And it's only $49.95 ;D"
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Post by Brian of DBK on Aug 6, 2008 2:51:32 GMT
Ahem, that would be $69.95. Seems our prices have gone up due to high energy costs. Still a bargain!
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Post by rammstein on Aug 6, 2008 2:52:49 GMT
SWEEET!
Thanks a ton shooter!
+1
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