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Post by calien on Apr 24, 2020 15:59:54 GMT
Sabre d'Officier des Chasseurs de la Garde Honneur if my rudimentary French is correct. Wow! Not entirely a one off but probably still very rare. Congratulations. And some good sleuthing there too. Now this one is in the bag, what are you after next? Any ideas? Yes im after an imperial guard sword now, there is a good one coming up and ive saved up quite a bit of money for it. Ill post it here if i win it
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Post by Pino on Apr 25, 2020 14:56:30 GMT
My personal opinion, pretty sure it would not belong to anything related to the Emperor's men; the Sun being the symbol of the King and royalty, carrying such a provocative detail while serving in the Imperial Guard or the Grande Armee would be much unwise.
I suspect it is either 2 options, that it would have belonged to a French emigre officer (during the Revolution or early years of the Empire) or it is a assemblage of parts made during the two Restaurations (1814 or post-1815).
First option might be the one I believe the most, it is not likely to be Republican, Bonapartist or Allied, the Sun symbol really indicates (French) Royalist allegiance.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 26, 2020 11:42:50 GMT
I think you might have been confused by the ,,Sun King'' label. The emblem of the Bourbons was the Lis Francais. Having that one anywhere near or on your person was not very wise during the upheavels. L'Hoste shows (5 minute search) diverse Consulat and Premier Empire epees and a Officers Dragoon spadroon (which I have) with sun emblems either on the pommels or, as in the case of the Dragoon Officers spadroon, on the guard plate. I think the sun symbol after the Ancien Regime might stand for the new beginning, the dawn of a new aera. See l'Hoste page 200 and the image uploaded. During the Ancien Regime there most certanly would have been a great big Fleur de Lis on the blade of Caliens sabre instead of the Revolutionary sun.
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Post by calien on Apr 26, 2020 16:55:21 GMT
My personal opinion, pretty sure it would not belong to anything related to the Emperor's men; the Sun being the symbol of the King and royalty, carrying such a provocative detail while serving in the Imperial Guard or the Grande Armee would be much unwise. I suspect it is either 2 options, that it would have belonged to a French emigre officer (during the Revolution or early years of the Empire) or it is a assemblage of parts made during the two Restaurations (1814 or post-1815). First option might be the one I believe the most, it is not likely to be Republican, Bonapartist or Allied, the Sun symbol really indicates (French) Royalist allegiance. Yes I have also found many samples on chasseur swords with the sun on it, the G is still confusing me though. Someone said it could be from the city some of these regiments where recruited for. The blade itself was made during the Napoleonic times as the "Gebruder" signature went away after 1816 in that form when one of the brother died, they shortened it and then in 1820 they started signing the heel and not the spine, there was much discussion on the french military forum and some are also doubtful about being part of the guarde D'honneur because of the guard. To me there is a lot of stuff that makes sense now, first how they copied the imperial guards format (because thats who they got attached to and also recruited as weirdly enough ill post a picture), then the expensive blade yet simple scabbard and guard like it was regulation. Ill continue to look into it some more to see if I can come across other samples.
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Post by Pino on Apr 26, 2020 17:07:21 GMT
I can be wrong sometimes but not confused, the confusion is when the Sun appears with other symbols such as the Moon and or esoteric and kabbalistic runes. This is the alchemy symbolism, not the royalist allegiance.
The Sun has been a royal symbol since Louis XIV and used since by Ancien Regime troops alongside the Fleur-de-Lys, when encountered as a stand-alone figure without alchemist connotation chances are you are dealing with one of the King's men.
The same applied with Napoleon's bees, eagles and N.
You must have a different edition of the L'Hoste book because page 200 shows a Navy sword and a post-1815 infantry sword, and mine shows only sword with Sun emblem listed as being under Louis XV-VI reigns. For example no 599-608, 626, 736, 785, 889 all have the Sun emblem but dated before the Revolution.
Then there's this part:
''Le soleil disparaît des attributs symboliques sous la Revolution et sous l'Empire. Il ne réapparaît qu'en 1816 sur le pommeau des épées des Gardes a pieds (...) et sur le clavier des épées des Cent-Suisses.
On a remarqué que le soleil, emblème royal, ne figure que sur les armes des militaires proches du roi. Le symbolisme du soleil disparaît sous Louis-Philippe mais se retrouve sous le Second Empire sur le pommeau des épées d'officiers de cavalerie de la Garde.''
Buigne and L'Hoste, page 13 on the books Armes Blanches.
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 26, 2020 17:22:04 GMT
Sorry. Forgot the title of the book: Les Epees.
Seems in one book he says it aint and in the other it is? The officers epees and spadroon do speak for themselves. Rock solid evidence the sun symbol was very well en vogue during the revolutionary period. Louis XIV was the Roi Soleil, XV and XVI not so much.
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Post by Pino on Apr 26, 2020 17:22:35 GMT
My personal opinion, pretty sure it would not belong to anything related to the Emperor's men; the Sun being the symbol of the King and royalty, carrying such a provocative detail while serving in the Imperial Guard or the Grande Armee would be much unwise. I suspect it is either 2 options, that it would have belonged to a French emigre officer (during the Revolution or early years of the Empire) or it is a assemblage of parts made during the two Restaurations (1814 or post-1815). First option might be the one I believe the most, it is not likely to be Republican, Bonapartist or Allied, the Sun symbol really indicates (French) Royalist allegiance. Yes I have also found many samples on chasseur swords with the sun on it, the G is still confusing me though. Someone said it could be from the city some of these regiments where recruited for. The blade itself was made during the Napoleonic times as the "Gebruder" signature went away after 1816 in that form when one of the brother died, they shortened it and then in 1820 they started signing the heel and not the spine, there was much discussion on the french military forum and some are also doubtful about being part of the guarde D'honneur because of the guard. To me there is a lot of stuff that makes sense now, first how they copied the imperial guards format (because thats who they got attached to and also recruited as weirdly enough ill post a picture), then the expensive blade yet simple scabbard and guard like it was regulation. Ill continue to look into it some more to see if I can come across other samples. I saw a sword similar to yours on Petard's book no 1 which is dated to 1801 to 6th Chasseur-a-Cheval regiment but with different pommel and langets. I'll see if I can take a pic and get back to you on this in a few minutes.
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Post by calien on Apr 26, 2020 18:09:42 GMT
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Post by calien on Apr 26, 2020 18:13:43 GMT
Yes I have also found many samples on chasseur swords with the sun on it, the G is still confusing me though. Someone said it could be from the city some of these regiments where recruited for. The blade itself was made during the Napoleonic times as the "Gebruder" signature went away after 1816 in that form when one of the brother died, they shortened it and then in 1820 they started signing the heel and not the spine, there was much discussion on the french military forum and some are also doubtful about being part of the guarde D'honneur because of the guard. To me there is a lot of stuff that makes sense now, first how they copied the imperial guards format (because thats who they got attached to and also recruited as weirdly enough ill post a picture), then the expensive blade yet simple scabbard and guard like it was regulation. Ill continue to look into it some more to see if I can come across other samples. I saw a sword similar to yours on Petard's book no 1 which is dated to 1801 to 6th Chasseur-a-Cheval regiment but with different pommel and langets. I'll see if I can take a pic and get back to you on this in a few minutes. I would love to see it, Ive been debating for a while about buying those books but they are so expensive...
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 26, 2020 18:29:23 GMT
Very nice job he did Calien!
I've found some more suns: Les Epees, page 189 fig.326, Louis XV and the spitting image of the sun on my P.E. Dragoon and also on top of the guard. Page 197, fig.345, Louis XVI. Page 199, fig.350, Seconde Empire and the rest as per above. So, it looks like the sun symbol stayed put right through all the brouhaha, from Louis XV right through to and including the S.E. My Consulat - P.E. Dragoon has a sunflower on the underside of the guard too.
Bertrand Malvaux has lots of Petard pictures in large format.
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Post by Pino on Apr 26, 2020 20:03:12 GMT
I saw a sword similar to yours on Petard's book no 1 which is dated to 1801 to 6th Chasseur-a-Cheval regiment but with different pommel and langets. I'll see if I can take a pic and get back to you on this in a few minutes. I would love to see it, Ive been debating for a while about buying those books but they are so expensive... Here are some pics of the said sword (no 137 on book 1) + another one (no 175 on book 2). It says both belonged to Chasseurs-a-Cheval units: the first one having a 6 attached on the langets (1801-1804), the other one engraved 15th regt + Imperial eagle on blade (Empire) Here's an image of them both from the Aries books: I also attached a pic of an Italian officer sword with the sun symbol on the blade, seen more frequently on such swords and considering they weren't hostile to kings and suns perhaps the Italians would be interesting to research.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 27, 2020 23:17:36 GMT
Very Nice! I thought I recognized the piece when John Logan posted it up
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Post by calien on Apr 29, 2020 9:42:40 GMT
Very Nice! I thought I recognized the piece when John Logan posted it up Yeah, he really did an awesome job.
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Post by calien on Feb 27, 2021 6:21:50 GMT
It seems that at long last the mystery has been solved. Its a General Satff saber from the Swiss canton of Geneva around 1810, quite rare and Im having a hard time finding information on them. (Thanks to Pavel a member of this group for the information).
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Post by pellius on Feb 28, 2021 1:03:09 GMT
Thanks for sharing the book photo. Such books are out of my price range, and info about Swiss swords is always very much appreciated.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 3, 2021 8:38:06 GMT
Swiss! Who would have thunk... I was looking for information on Swiss sabres and found a book series on everything produced there, sabres having their own volume. Like Pellius says the price of the entire oeuvre is not funny and when sometimes only the sabre volume is for sale somewhere on some Swiss site it is sold out immediately. Kudos you got one! Or did you buy the entire set? The only on-line catalogue I know of is the Carl Beck collection: www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/index.php , but you are stuck with examples he thought interesting, so one does not get the full picture. Shame there is so little info getting out about what the Officers in various Cantons did with their stuff. Though it could be said that that in general Officers abide by the fashion of the day, those Cantonale discrepancies make things interesting again. Very nice sabre indeed! Cheers.
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Post by calien on Mar 3, 2021 18:33:20 GMT
Swiss! Who would have thunk... I was looking for information on Swiss sabres and found a book series on everything produced there, sabres having their own volume. Like Pellius says the price of the entire oeuvre is not funny and when sometimes only the sabre volume is for sale somewhere on some Swiss site it is sold out immediately. Kudos you got one! Or did you buy the entire set? The only on-line catalogue I know of is the Carl Beck collection: www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/index.php , but you are stuck with examples he thought interesting, so one does not get the full picture. Shame there is so little info getting out about what the Officers in various Cantons did with their stuff. Though it could be said that that in general Officers abide by the fashion of the day, those Cantonale discrepancies make things interesting again. Very nice sabre indeed! Cheers. Unfortunately I dont have those books that was sent by a friend of mine who happened to remember what my saber looked like. Im pretty sure he is part of this group but I dont know him outside of facebook.
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