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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 2:33:53 GMT
Hi all - I am new to the forums (have a post up on the Welcome thread) and new to swords in general. I have long admired from a distance, but have never owned one. I am looking to take the plunge, though. After some looking, thinking, drooling, thinking some more, I have narrowed my choice down to a medieval 1-hander. As much as I like the look of hand-and-a-half's, at 5'5" I think I am just too short for one. If I were to ever wear something that long belted at my side it would drag on the ground and I probably couldn't get it out from a scabbard. Yeah, the very image of cool. I like the shorter blades just as well, and the practical side of having a free hand. Plus, the lesser weight seems like an advantage for starting out. I have a lot of respect for historical accuracy, but for my first sword I really only need historically inspired. It outta look at least a bit plausible . Someday when I am a lot more educated, my tastes have refined, and can quote Oakshott chapter and verse I will happily look back and smile at my possibly silly sword. So, I have got my choices pretty much down to 3 from Darksword Armory. Tough sounds good. (The small diameter bamboo in my yard is afraid, very afraid) Knight www.sword-buyers-guide.com/knight-sword.htmlit's kissing cousin, the Norman www.sword-buyers-guide.com/DSA-Norman.htmland the Squire www.sword-buyers-guide.com/squire.htmlas near as I can tell, the Knight and Norman are the same sword with different crosses, and slightly different grips. The choice here would be between straight and curved quillions. The Squire is a tad longer, 3" in the blade, 2" overall, the POB is 1-1.5" further out, and yet it is lighter 2lb8oz, vs 3lb2oz or 2.96lbs depending on who weighs it. I see that Paul feels the squire is a little tip heavy. Okay, but will I notice that given that I will have nothing to compare it to? My question is.. What do the small differences in weight, length, PoB and CoP here translate into handling wise? Or are they small enough to not really matter... should I just pick the one I like looking at (I don't have THAT much bamboo. It will be spending time on my wall being admired, too)? Thanks - Buff
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 2:37:31 GMT
I'd vote the squire, but its more of a personal taste thing. DSA makes good swords.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 29, 2008 3:15:49 GMT
Though they look alike at first pass, the Knight and the Norman are very different swords. The Norman has significant blade presence, think "chopper or basher". The Knight is much more pointy and balanced closer to the cross, think "poker with enough blade to cut". They seem to handle quite differently. I have been working over a Knight for Centurion2000 and happen to think it's the better handling sword.
But it really comes down to whether you want a thrusting sword that can cut pretty well (the Knight). Or a cutting sword that's heavily built and stiff enough to thrust (the Norman).
The Squire seems to be a lighter, faster version of the Norman. I would be tempted to pick it for a first sword.
No matter which you choose, just be aware that properly sharpening one of them is a chore of epic proportions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 3:36:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 3:46:10 GMT
hmmm yes. I just looked at some of the listed stats for the knight and the norman. The come out a little different on different sites which may have helped with my confusion... I have have been clicking back and forth between too many sites in the last week - norman here, knight there, oh look....another knight something or other sword!
Thanks for the heads up and the advice. That was very helpful.
Sharpening. Yeah, I am still undecided with that. Sharp objects don't frighten me, but then I have never had one quite this big either. I was thinking it might be prudent to buy an unsharpened sword to start. On the other hand, I have a wooden practice sword to help me safely learn some handling and a sharp sword certainly seems more functional. Just from tuning up machetes and drawers full of kitchen knives, I know that 25-35$ to let somebody else take a blade this long from dead dull to sharp is a bargain, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 3:55:33 GMT
Well unless your REALLY good...I HIGHLY recommend against sharpening a DSA as your first sword. God that was a nightmare...and I killed my favorite hand file in the process no less. On a side note, the sharpening service done by DSA is machine sharpened instead of doing it by hand to get the proper edge geometry. And the windlass from relicks or MRL or KoA are also machine sharpened. Arms of Valor does sharpen their windlass by hands (and thier price is VERY reasonable for something like that) but they will no longer sharpen the DSA because it is really just THAT bad. You might be able to finagle Brian into doing it however if you ask nicely . PS. also the really important answer we need is what do you wanna do with your shiny new sword .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 5:07:10 GMT
I own the DSA Squire and it is a very nice sword even though as Paul said is a bit tip heavy. It isn't super slow but not as fast as the Knight appears to be in the video's and requires a bit of man handling which is not that hard for me at 6'2 and 200lbs put it may be more difficult for you to control. Now on to the good stuff, the sword feels very powerful in motion and is a tank that will go through pretty much anything with jor once it is sharp plus it is a very beautiful sword with a very well done grip that is solid in the hand and there are not too many swords around with that type of handle so that is nice as well. The handle is also just long enough to put your hand on the pommel for two handed strikes so if you have smaller hands that may be a way to go.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 12:34:22 GMT
I definitely plan on some backyard cutting. It will also spend its downtime on a wall to be admired. I doubt I will be getting into stage combat, but some WMA training seems likely. I would like to learn to effectively and safely handle whatever blade I end up getting.
@cold Napalm - interesting. I just emailed Arms of Valor 2 days ago to point out that they did not have a sharpening option listed for the squire, unlike their other DSA swords ($36 for what I was looking at). And they added it to the website within 24 hours ($35 for the squire). But yeah, no way am I going to sharpen one of these myself. Not with my first sword. Thanks for the machine sharpening head's up for DSA and KoA - I was guessing, but wasn't sure. Not to say that machine sharpening is always the worst possible thing, but it's good to know what you are buying, right? DSA's site also says that they don't ship sharpened blades internationally (out of Canada) due to international shipping laws about dangerous goods.
general sharpening question - do folks sharpen their swords all the way down to the crossguard? Do you leave a couple of inches so you can put a finger up there? If you were going to try and use 2 hands a 1-handed sword, that would seem to me at least, to be a way to give you a little extra hand room on the hilt. Do people just specify how much they want unsharpened when they place their order? I have no idea what the conventions are.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 14:54:34 GMT
Humm if AoV has the DSA sharpening option at 35 dollars it might be the DSA shop sharpening option. It is soemthing DSA has been working on recently. You might wanna contact Jason from AoV to confirm if it's hand sharpened by Brian or done on a machine. For WMA, you need a blunt sword...however many WMA will not allow something like a DSA with a sharp tip so for that purpose, you want to check with your local groups. Something like the hanwei practical line however is all good . So basically when you decide to start WMA, you'll probably need another sword. As for sharpening, you can ask to not have the entire blade sharpened IF it's done by hand or a small scale. In the case of windlass machine sharpened, they will just send you one all the way sharpened...no matter what you ask for. But don't fret, even sharp blades can be held in the hand for attacks just fine with some leather gloves (or calloused hands). And basically what you mentioned is what ricosso were made for .
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 29, 2008 19:32:00 GMT
As for sharpening, that's a WIDELY varied personal preference. I don't think there's a right or wrong, as long as it works for you.
My preference for most medieval swords is to have a paper-cutting edge from the midpoint to the tip, with a fairly shallow appleseed profile.
But from the midpoint back to the guard, I prefer a much broader appleseed profile that isn't nearly as sharp. That portion will still cut with the proper technique. But it's beefier and primarily designed to catch/block an opponent's blade (in theory, not so much in practice) and for holding onto on longswords, for half-swording or when the grip is reversed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 20:24:52 GMT
The nice thing about having hand sharpened by somebody like Brian through AoV or asking Dand to do it is that you can get it sharpened however you like . Me, I just do the same all the way through...but my hands are quite calloused already.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2008 21:28:36 GMT
The squire is rather notorious for gaining weight in transit. I have yet to see one of those under 3 lbs and many are at or above 3.5 lbs. I had hoped the new batch would fix this but somebody at myarmoury got a new one and it weighted 3 lbs 8 ounces. . That's interesting; I wonder if that holds true all the time? I am looking at the Knight and the Squire, even the 13th Century Tower of London, and noticed that the Squire is listed significantly lighter, although 2" longer than either....makes it sound like the Squire is thinner or something. If indeed the Squires come in over 3 pounds, more like 3 and a half as you say, I'd be happier about it, actually. Does DSA have it listed wrong to begin with?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2008 21:36:53 GMT
We had a look at the DS sharpening option and decided that the AoV was better and are continuing to do it ourselves.
I found the Squire to be too heavy and for handling would go with a Norman or Knight. Though the Knights are now out of stock until November.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2008 20:40:29 GMT
Cold, how many times do I have to tell you! The new DSA swords come with a 1 mm false edge. I got Brian Kunz, of AOV, to sharpen my new line Gothic two hander for $95 by hand and he put a damn good edge on there. Truthfully I too am in the market for an arming sword. I will mostly likely buy the Gen2 Knightly riding sword when it comes it. Even though it is a bit too short for my taste, everything else is perfect! Though the DSA black knight sword would be a good choice. Personally I'd polish it to get the blueing off to produce a nice shine and have it sharpened by Brian. However, I want a peened sword. Also about Windlass? Aren't they hard leather scabbards that they come with? I don't think they have wooden cores. All the new Gen2 swords have wooden core scabbards I believe. That's another reason to get Gen2 besides the fact they come sharp. The squire is rather notorious for gaining weight in transit. I have yet to see one of those under 3 lbs and many are at or above 3.5 lbs. I had hoped the new batch would fix this but somebody at myarmoury got a new one and it weighted 3 lbs 8 ounces. The Squre sword from what I have been told from DSA in an email is actually 3lb 2 ounces. Now the older ones did weigh 2lb 8 ounches. Jason Woodward owns one but the new ones weigh just over three pounds or at least should according to what I was told. They do make good swords but they need to grind down the cross sections more especially near the tip and peen the swords! Even if it raises prices! I would buy more swords from them if they spent more time grinding and refining and removing excess weight at the factory and peend their swords. Even if it meant a $50 price hike! Especially if they came sharp!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2008 20:52:32 GMT
Ah, good to see that Brian is sharpening DSAs again. Of course you guys can do it better...you guys do everything the right way . Deathdude, I think that DSA's website might have the weight wrong. I have come across a fair number of the squires and none are nowhere near 2.5 lbs. Maybe Jason can get a few on a scale and give us some numbers on what the new ones run the gambit of weight on? Because honestly, if I didn't see how heavy, slow and sluggish one these swords are in real life, I would be tempted to pick one up (and many people did around here...only to be rather throughly disappointed as well...kinda why people around here don't really buy DSA anymore).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2008 21:11:31 GMT
Cold, how many times do I have to tell you! The new DSA swords come with a 1 mm false edge. I got Brian Kunz, of AOV, to sharpen my new line Gothic two hander for $95 by hand and he put a damn good edge on there. See, there's the rub...95 dollars...vs 35 dollars. You think that maybe that was the reason I thought it was machine sharpened? Umm I haven't seen an older one that weighted 2.5 lbs. And the new one, I'm going off by somebody who got one in hand at myarmoury (which is still over by 6 ounces from what eyal said...thats NOT forge variance...or if it is, he needs some new blacksmiths). DSA can be good swords...if you know what to expect from them. It's NOT light. It's NOT quick...or agile or lively in any sense of the word. Barring the fact we have weighted these on a scale, if the sword was 2.5 lbs, the only way to make it feel that bad was to have it be balanced horrendously. Besides which, DSA blades didn't get thicker and with less metal on the edge, the swords should be getting LIGHTER, not heavier anyways. Now I'm sure the knight and gothic do handle better as I have read enough to say so...but the squire...no. If you want something heavy duty, then maybe the squire will fit your needs (like what deathdude wants ). I know DSA doesn't make swords for me...that's okay...there are plenty of others who do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2008 5:45:44 GMT
In the realm of one-handers, I REALLY like the Windlass Classic Medieval. I heard a few grumblings about Windlass quality, but my Windlass Viking sword is tank-tough and the fittings are still tight despite some heavy pell bashing. Has anyone tried out the Classic? I'll be picking up one soon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2008 6:28:22 GMT
Well...it's discountinued I believe for one.
Secondly, it's pretty tip heavy and a bit to long as a pure one handed sword. I'm okay with the length as I use longswords one handed all the time, but the balance is pretty bad for my taste. It feels like a halfway between a sword and an axe. If that is something you like, then go for it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2008 21:10:57 GMT
Here is the response from DSA: Hi Landon,
The weigh varies slightly from production to production. This generally happens with pieces are hand made as opposed to machine made. The variations however are slight. We just completed a production not long ago. The weigh of the Squire swords on this production is 3lb 1 oz.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Thank you,
Eyal Azerad Darksword Armory
------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, 3lbs 1 oz on the current batch, according to them. Not bad, but still significantly different than 2.5 lbs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2008 21:44:49 GMT
Well...it's discountinued I believe for one. Secondly, it's pretty tip heavy and a bit to long as a pure one handed sword. I'm okay with the length as I use longswords one handed all the time, but the balance is pretty bad for my taste. It feels like a halfway between a sword and an axe. If that is something you like, then go for it. I don't know what it means, but windlass.com/products/medievalswords.php Windlass still lists them on their site.
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