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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 15, 2019 8:26:37 GMT
Okay, so this is a restoration project I've taken on. I'm going to be updating the thread as I make progress throughout the next couple days or so. free image hostingBackground - I got this sword because I was very curious about its connection to the German mystery sabre from earlier threads, and because it originally had a leather wrapped hilt. It arrived, and was "bent like hoop iron" to quote the accounts of bent swords in D.A. Kinsley's Book; "British Sword Fighters 1600 - 1945". The hilt was rattling, and I noticed the grip was missing a big chunk of itself under the leather. I initially sent in for a return, but got a rather short reply from the seller. I decided I would rather fix it up and sell it on at a loss than have it go back and rot away under the stewardship of someone who thought horribly bent blades is a sign of normal use. So far I have stripped the hilt. The entire assembly was totally covered in bright orange rust, and the parts have suffered for it. The grip is half rotten. Cracked. Wire broken into multiple strands, the usual relic sword. I removed the leather from the hilt, I plan on preserving it in some manner, but if someone wants it for some study feel free to message me for it. free image hostingSee those holes in the ears of the backstrap? Nothing there... no hole in the tang or grip to correspond with it. Also that ferrule is very crude. Especially compared to the rest of the sword. Clearly pounded out by Señor Vasquez in his shop, it is also much larger than the rest of the components and doesn't fit the rest of the hilt. Everything fits together like a puzzle... but that. Composite piece or just a mark of a new nation? free image hostingNot sure. I think I'll wait for all y'all to weigh in on it if you want to before I do anything to or with it. The blade has some markings on it, however very faint now. The blade had clearly been heavily cleaned in the past and no doubt by the vendor I got it from if not Señor Vasquez. Looks to me like "R M" underneath a liberty cap set in a sunburst. Thoughts? Ideas? free image hostingOverall this whole sabre sort of reminds me of the French Mle1829 mounted artillery sword. I'll update this thread when I make some good progress. Have some new wiring and 1 ounce leather on the way for the grip. Will be a careful job peening it. Thoughts, opinions welcome! Uhlan and @edelweiss would love to hear your thoughts on the sword.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 9:22:20 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 15, 2019 15:31:54 GMT
Hot dang! Will you please stop purchasing sabres in this state of dissolution? I am in the process of cleaning an M1811 blade and that alone already cost me about two weeks of my miserable life. Now I see this thing and I want to cry.....
It looks like the foible section has a lot of pitting, while the rest of the blade looks much better. If you want to remove the pitting from the foible get a piece of wood 1.5 x 1.5 x 4 or 5 cm long. Wrap say 120 grid around it, real tight. Start sanding from about half up the foible in the direction of the fuller termination. Mind to follow the curves of the blade. For the other half of the foible turn the blade around and sand in the direction of the tip. This way gives you better control and will not damage the tip or the fuller termination if you are careful. Later on sand out the scratches with 180-240 and oil. Good call to take the sabre apart. This works much easier. For the hilt you could start sanding with say 240 and oil or go over it with some trow away cheap little bronze wire brushes. The point is to get into those crannies. Finish with steel wool and oil. It may be possible to remove a lot of the gunk from the grip with the soft bronze wire brushes too. The channels need to be clean. Do not use water and such. Missing parts of the grip can be made out of Play Do and fixed permanently to the wood with a good soak of Super glue after drying. Look for two small holes in the grip. Those are the start and end points of the wire. Soak the prepared leather in water and apply only when just moist. Use thin rope to bind it to the grip following the channels. After drying do the copper wire starting from the pommel end down to the ferrule end. Originally the ends of the wire were bend into the tang channel in such a way that shoving the grip on the tang secured the wire, so, the ends in the channel must face in the direction of the pommel. If you run into trouble just PM me and I will try to help you out. I would keep the ferrule as is, maybe clean it up a bit. Gives a nice touch to the assembly I think.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 15:38:44 GMT
I love restoration projects. All things considered, this sword is still in decent condition. I cannot wait to see what becomes of it.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 15, 2019 20:43:18 GMT
@edelweiss I can't believe I didn't find that thread after like a week of looking stuff up online. The hilt looks a match, though it seems the blade is less curved. A Facebook post I made on the sabre got the attention of Fairbanks, he believes it's first quarter of the 20th century. I'm not sure if that's just the leather wrap though, I had thought your idea was more accurate. With how much corrosion there is to the hilt and tang it seems more in line with first half 19th along with the general build. It's very robust and actually quite thick at the spine. Overall so far this little Mexican sword has proved quite interesting! I can see this hemisphere of swords being fun to collect in the future. Uhlan I didn't think it was in such a bad condition when I bought it! I was really shocked by the blade bends alone, taking the leather off I was really taken back. I got to spend a little time cleaning it up and managed to clean the initial layer of crud off the blade. Today I'm going to use a wire brush on the tang and the more rusty parts of the hilt components to get it out of the pits. My brothers cat that I am watching for him knocked over my tub of evaporust. Thanks for the advice per the grip! I managed to scrape off the old leather and have id'd the wholes for wires. Looks like 20 gauge brass wire, ye old Spanish style like the French and "prusian" lineages.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 16, 2019 3:01:28 GMT
After hours on the wire brush and on straightening jig for the blade...
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 16, 2019 6:48:00 GMT
I hope you know I was joking? A bit...?
This looks much better already. Good work saving this wreck from the scrap heap! About the grip: Have the leather overlap smack in the middle under the backstrap and cut in the middle of the overlap like cutting carpet and tape ( with the glue side up!) the grip off to let it dry, but maybe the cord will hold the seam together also. To enhance the looks I would look for two steel pins with nice and fitting heads, cut them short so they go into the grip but will not touch the tang and glue them on the wings. Also I would not bother with peening. Assemble the sabre, close up every nook and cranny and fill with epoxy. Find a good steel screw, file the head to look like a peen, maybe even leave some hammer marks, file the stem down and shorten it to fit into a hole drilled into the tang and with a good metal glue fit the fake peen into place. This way you will save a lot of work and remember that re-peening may break the probably brittle cast iron side bars or the knuckle bow due to too much pressure. I would not take the chance here.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 17, 2019 22:07:10 GMT
Oh of course! My bad, I let my excitement get ahead of me. Grip is done! Copied the wire gauge and leather thickness (or tried to on the latter) and so far it fits together perfectly! I made a new grip heel using wood putty and a lot of wet epoxy, held up well so far, even did an accidental dropping it on the ground and a chair test. I'm thinking when it got rehilted they really messed fitment up. Even now, after filing down the peen, and when I put everything back, there is a good 1/8th of steel from the rang though the pommel cap. It makes sense, The grip was down the tang about a quarter inch. I'm going to have to try to make a new ferrule I think. The existing one is really misshapen compared to the grip core, too long, too large, actually orignal it was fitted around the whole grip assembly. Now with the leather and wire it doesn't do that anymore. I've also put some old/New pics in it.
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Post by markus313 on Aug 17, 2019 22:12:54 GMT
Wow, that's looking great so far!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 17, 2019 22:14:55 GMT
Thanks! Just need to do the faux ear nuts, and the final assembly.
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Post by markus313 on Aug 17, 2019 22:22:50 GMT
Really impressed, looking forward to completion!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 17, 2019 23:34:03 GMT
Being a holiday, Mothers Day, things were a little disorganized and I missed the original thread. That’s looking good. Will you be replacing the ferrule on the grip?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 18, 2019 5:27:16 GMT
Being a holiday, Mothers Day, things were a little disorganized and I missed the original thread. That’s looking good. Will you be replacing the ferrule on the grip? Sure Do! Have already got some metal cut out for it and a little bit of shaping done.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 18, 2019 5:35:23 GMT
Great looking sabre you got there! Excellent work all around.
This is some variation on the British P1821 LC theme? Like Solingen did for the Portuguese where they copied the Officers model to be used by the troopers?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 18, 2019 6:30:07 GMT
Great looking sabre you got there! Excellent work all around. This is some variation on the British P1821 LC theme? Like Solingen did for the Portuguese where they copied the Officers model to be used by the troopers? Thanks! It's been a fun project. The hilt set up seems like it, I have been curious about the blade, it seems a lot like the French 1829, if not a little bit less wide. I haven't had one of those yet though so that's mostly a guess through pictures. Oh, on the tang it has a stamp of "C" with another stamp that's too corroded to make put properly. Almost looks like a crown on a V. Solingen forge stamps? As well as this, cleaning the tang allowed me to see what looks almost like a weld? Iron tang forge welded onto a tempered steel blade? It looks like the aging is not so disturbed, and the black hasn't come off very easy at all. Any thoughts on this?
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Post by pellius on Aug 18, 2019 20:22:15 GMT
Wow. Beautiful work. That’s one lucky sword.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2019 20:28:17 GMT
Prettttttty
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 19, 2019 4:13:43 GMT
Tang: Material folded over? Could be weld also. If so it is a good one. It held up for ages. Stamp: Been going through what I have. As far as I can see, it is not Solingen, nor one of the local French forges. Could be British, but I have nothing on those. Spanish would be logical. In the Sail Guard thread I have a link to Spanish stamps. I have no idea whether Mexico had some production set up at that time.
Blade: It looks indeed like an M1829, but the general design was quite common. The Prussian M1808, the father of the M1811, had such a blade for instance. If you give me the numbers I can see whether the M1829 connection is valid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 5:02:50 GMT
Iron/soft tangs welded on the stubs are pretty common. Wilkinson used them even into the patent tang era but the patent tangs an answer to what had been traditional manufacture. I won't and don't want to get into a large debate on it but soft tangs go back in history to the earliest of heat treated swords.
Re the Fairbanks response and the 20th century, I think that is from the thread I linked and that particular lead post example, as crisp and virtually unused. The other British 1908 and my seeing the canvas scabbard covers, along with other evidences, insulation.
Looks like a nice clean up
Cheers GC
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 19, 2019 6:12:59 GMT
Uhlan, it held up to peening as well. Whole thing rings like a bell now. I may be having a bit of a moron moment, but I can't seem to locate the link to the Spanish stamps in the sailboat thread. One of the viking sword links? The blade measures 32" long by 1.25 inches at the base. I'm not sure if the M1829 is either slightly longer or wider. Deepeeka makes one! But it's only 31 inches... @edelweiss I wouldn't against that they used soft tangs welded on, I've heard of them before but never actually seen one til now. I don't doubt it's a welded on tang end. It certainly is a LOT softer than the rest of the blade, and the black color that wasn't removed with the rest seems like it could be from heat. Sure stuck on the blade I had heat treated by L. Driggers. Yeah, I don't think the leather is nearly as old as the sabre. Especially given the condition under it. I mean, there is some serious pitting on the tang and guard. Like a sponge in some areas. The leather was shrunk around the replacement ferrule, and around the area where the grip was broken off. Thanks! It's been a fun project. Btw, @lebleuchevalier pellius, markus313, pgandy, and of course the two above, it is almost done! All that is left is to put the fake ear nuts in. I will glue them in and shape them, in a reverse order from that. image hostingAnd clean the ferrule up a little. But that will be very easy to do with a strip of sanding sponge to take the shine off.
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