thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 28, 2019 17:15:23 GMT
With three bags of tempered spring steel scales from the ringlord, as well as flat dome riveted rings from KoA. Not only have I greatly underestimated the amount of time this will take me, but I can also cinfirm without a doubt that the dome riviting pliers I also purchased are certainly not worth the twenty some odd dollars I paid, as after about the third rivet I crushed split one of the handles at the forge weld. After that, I began using slightly modified slip-joint pliers from 19908, with far better success. Even though they are much shorter, I do feel like I'm honestly getting far more mechanical advantage from the slip joint pliers. Will update as this progresses, and likely ask a few questions here and there if anyone else on the forum has any advice for fantasy esc. armorors jumping head first into a project that far outweighs their experience. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 28, 2019 17:37:51 GMT
I would very much like to watch your progress. It’s good to know that slip joint pliers will work. I started several times to order the rings and tool from KoA for riveted mail but during those times they seemed to be out of at least one of what I needed so I settled for their high tensile butted rings. I made a coif, mantel, and modified my hauberk. It was a good learning experience. I had no trouble in making smaller panels but when I tried to join them together to form curves got a bit tricky.
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 28, 2019 17:43:47 GMT
I would very much like to watch your progress. It’s good to know that slip joint pliers will work. I started several times to order the rings and tool from KoA for riveted mail but during those times they seemed to be out of at least one of what I needed so I settled for their high tensile butted rings. I made a coif, mantel, and modified my hauberk. It was a good learning experience. I had no trouble in making smaller panels but when I tried to join them together to form curves got a bit tricky. I tried to make a coif once, but the pattern at the dome of the head threw me off pretty quick, on a few different attempts. Did you use a larger queen ring? the 7mm rings I'm using now are difficult. It takes me three times as much time to find the pattern again as it does to actually assemble it. Wasn't sure if it was just my lack of experience, though I thought that not the case because I'm otherwise very mechanically inclined and dexterous, though that could also be my arrogance talking.  |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 28, 2019 18:12:04 GMT
I would very much like to watch your progress. It’s good to know that slip joint pliers will work. I started several times to order the rings and tool from KoA for riveted mail but during those times they seemed to be out of at least one of what I needed so I settled for their high tensile butted rings. I made a coif, mantel, and modified my hauberk. It was a good learning experience. I had no trouble in making smaller panels but when I tried to join them together to form curves got a bit tricky. I tried to make a coif once, but the pattern at the dome of the head threw me off pretty quick, on a few different attempts. Did you use a larger queen ring? the 7mm rings I'm using now are difficult. It takes me three times as much time to find the pattern again as it does to actually assemble it. Wasn't sure if it was just my lack of experience, though I thought that not the case because I'm otherwise very mechanically inclined and dexterous, though that could also be my arrogance talking. (rofl) I used 16 ga. 9 mm rings by Lord of Battles. I got the pattern for the coif form a YouTube post. I was glad many times that I was using butted rings because that was easier to correct my mistakes, which were many. Cheaper too as I could most of the time reuse the rings. I remember one big mistake, that was with my mantel. It was basically made of four triangular sections fastened together. I was about half way through making the fourth panel when I realized that I had all of the rings going in the same direction and discovered two panels needed the rings in one direction and the other panel needed rings in the other. That didn’t make my day. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 28, 2019 18:14:57 GMT
I recently watched the Richard Lester movie "Robin and Marian".
Beside it's big fun you can see one knight in a scale armor several times.
Don't know how historical correct it is.
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 28, 2019 22:13:08 GMT
I tried to make a coif once, but the pattern at the dome of the head threw me off pretty quick, on a few different attempts. Did you use a larger queen ring? the 7mm rings I'm using now are difficult. It takes me three times as much time to find the pattern again as it does to actually assemble it. Wasn't sure if it was just my lack of experience, though I thought that not the case because I'm otherwise very mechanically inclined and dexterous, though that could also be my arrogance talking. I used 16 ga. 9 mm rings by Lord of Battles. I got the pattern for the coif form a YouTube post. I was glad many times that I was using butted rings because that was easier to correct my mistakes, which were many. Cheaper too as I could most of the time reuse the rings. I remember one big mistake, that was with my mantel. It was basically made of four triangular sections fastened together. I was about half way through making the fourth panel when I realized that I had all of the rings going in the same direction and discovered two panels needed the rings in one direction and the other panel needed rings in the other. That didn’t make my day. Yeah, I have to break the old trusty cutters out if I goof, certainly takes quite a bit longer I'm sure. I would be heartbroken if I had made that mistake with riveted rings..  |
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 28, 2019 22:14:20 GMT
I recently watched the Richard Lester movie "Robin and Marian". Beside it's big fun you can see one knight in a scale armor several times. Don't know how historical correct it is. To my knowledge, sale armor did in fact exist, though I'm pretty sure it was an asian type of armor, and I have no idea what time period it surfaced, though I have a sneaking suspision is was towards the end of the middle ages. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 28, 2019 22:19:21 GMT
To my knowledge, sale armor did in fact exist, though I'm pretty sure it was an asian type of armor, and I have no idea what time period it surfaced, though I have a sneaking suspision is was towards the end of the middle ages. Would you believe around 1400 BC? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_armour |
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 28, 2019 23:41:25 GMT
To my knowledge, sale armor did in fact exist, though I'm pretty sure it was an asian type of armor, and I have no idea what time period it surfaced, though I have a sneaking suspision is was towards the end of the middle ages. Would you believe around 1400 BC? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_armour would have I? absolutely not  Surprising it wasn't in use far more often, as it is certainly superior to chainmail if crafted the same way I am. I want to do some form of testing with it, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to destroy it with the effort involved in manufacturing it |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 29, 2019 3:47:54 GMT
Fish scale armor was used during the middle ages.
Byzantinian Cataphracts and the Frankish heavy cavalry were famous examples.
Mail and plate were used more and more later but scale armor still exists.
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thomasthesecond
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Post by thomasthesecond on Jul 29, 2019 12:59:23 GMT
Fish scale armor was used during the middle ages. Byzantinian Cataphracts and the Frankish heavy cavalry were famous examples. Mail and plate were used more and more later but scale armor still exists. From what I can gather, those were "over lapping plates attached to some form of textile", so basically a coat of plates without the textile cover. I know that certainly qualifies as scale, though what I'm making is basically 4-1 European chain with the scales acting as the solid ring. |
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 11, 2019 3:47:13 GMT
A second late night working on it. Cleaning each scale is beginning to wear on my fingertips, as well as a slight irritation in the back of my hand from riveting each ring. I'll have to order more scales soon, and I'm also undecided on where this scale (hauberk?) will end length wise. |
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christain
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It's the steel on the inside that counts.
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Post by christain on Aug 11, 2019 9:54:45 GMT
Kinda gives one a new appreciation for the ancient/medieval folk who would probably sit and do that ALL DAY...not to mention the dudes over in India who still do it today to bring us relatively cheap chain mail. And we b*tch about the quality of it...  |
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 11, 2019 14:35:31 GMT
Kinda gives one a new appreciation for the ancient/medieval folk who would probably sit and do that ALL DAY...not to mention the dudes over in India who still do it today to bring us relatively cheap chain mail. And we b*tch about the quality of it... Honestly, I find chainmail harder than scale. It's too easy to lose your place with nothing but rings. Actually doing it isn't that bad, it's almost therapeutic. It's just finding the time to do it with the hustle and bustle of my daily life, as well as my several other projects. Honestly though, I wanted to just purchase mail, I still might to use under the scale. The reason I decided upon making my own was the cost - I'm going to guess finalizing around about 75 dollars. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 11, 2019 16:53:47 GMT
Will have to order will you? That’s the problem I had. I thought that I could make mine for about the same price if not a little cheaper than a readymade job. I found myself going back several times to reorder and that really jacked the price up for me with the international shipping involved. In the long run I think maybe I should have just ordered one off of the peg. But found the experience most rewarding.
Not only did I find bringing two sub-assemblies together on a curved area but when I opened my store bought hauberk to insert more panels as it was too small I was in for another surprise. What seemed at first to be a simple job turned tricky. On inserting the my premade panels I found it extremely easy to exert more force on one side of the panel, or hauberk for that fact, than the other skewing things out of line. With the rings it wasn’t all that easy to detect until I neared an edge. Then it was searching to find out where I went wrong and start undoing rings only to start over. Making me more glad I was using butted joints.
Talking about sore fingers, mine got sore too and I remember my nails took a beating.
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christain
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Post by christain on Aug 11, 2019 23:55:34 GMT
When I was a kid, one of my favorite things to do was explore abandoned houses and buildings---usually illegally.  I once found a whole box of those tiny key rings---I guess you call them 'split rings' (?)---hundreds and hundreds of them. I called myself going to make some mail out of them.  I think I made it to about 100 or so rings before I said ---nope, too hard. |
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 12, 2019 3:34:08 GMT
Will have to order will you? That’s the problem I had. I thought that I could make mine for about the same price if not a little cheaper than a readymade job. I found myself going back several times to reorder and that really jacked the price up for me with the international shipping involved. In the long run I think maybe I should have just ordered one off of the peg. But found the experience most rewarding. Not only did I find bringing two sub-assemblies together on a curved area but when I opened my store bought hauberk to insert more panels as it was too small I was in for another surprise. What seemed at first to be a simple job turned tricky. On inserting the my premade panels I found it extremely easy to exert more force on one side of the panel, or hauberk for that fact, than the other skewing things out of line. With the rings it wasn’t all that easy to detect until I neared an edge. Then it was searching to find out where I went wrong and start undoing rings only to start over. Making me more glad I was using butted joints. Talking about sore fingers, mine got sore too and I remember my nails took a beating. Yeah, my nails are pretty thrashed. It's honestly the only reason I haven't cut them as short as I always do. I looked before I started making mine, and no one made scale with tempered spring steel scales and riveted rings. One or the other, and they were extremely expensive. So I decided this was the best route. I'm about three hundred scales in, only having twenty or so left. They're about nine dollars per one hundred with shipping, and I've got more than seventy five percent of my rings left, so I'll doubtfully be buying more of those, which is a good thing because they're always out of stock. With the three hundred scales I've got almost a quarter of a hauberk minus the sleeves, and it'll likely end up being rather short as far as hauberk(s?) are concerned. It's also about as heavy now as a butted ring vest that my friend owns, which worries me a little. It may end up being closer to fourty pounds when I'm done with it. The scales are about a sixteenth of an inch thick, or about 2mm if my memory of the "proper" measurement system is still in tact, which is likely why. |
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thomasthesecond
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"I thought I was an architect, but I was just moving dirt."
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Post by thomasthesecond on Aug 12, 2019 3:34:56 GMT
When I was a kid, one of my favorite things to do was explore abandoned houses and buildings---usually illegally. I once found a whole box of those tiny key rings---I guess you call them 'split rings' (?)---hundreds and hundreds of them. I called myself going to make some mail out of them. I think I made it to about 100 or so rings before I said ---nope, too hard. I've tried a few times as well, never make it very far before problems arise and I get frustrated. Lol |
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Aug 12, 2019 13:18:15 GMT
I just saw this...
So an acquaintance made a 'Lorica Plumata' for SCA fighting.
He was very very excited to give it long hard field testing.
His also was entirely hand made like yours.
The short version of the story is that for SCA style fighting it offered little protection, more than regular mail though.
Left very fun bruises.
Was high maintenance, as the scales regularly broke rings or snapped off, bent etc.
And I personally LOVED stabbing him because the scales caught tips like velcro.
Oh, and it was heavy heavy.
So now he drags it our for special battles, but it was a great learning process.
I think for display, its great, for fighting, it really depends on what you're doing.
I mean, if you were in medieval times, and had access to different armors to face different weapon systems, this one has merit thats for sure.
But also, I'm sure theres a good reason it was mostly phased out.
Now the real questions...
Whats your plan for anti-rust maintenance?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 12, 2019 14:25:52 GMT
It's also about as heavy now as a butted ring vest that my friend owns, which worries me a little. It may end up being closer to fourty pounds when I'm done with it. The scales are about a sixteenth of an inch thick, or about 2mm if my memory of the "proper" measurement system is still in tact, which is likely why. That about confirms my smile when I read "Honestly though, I wanted to just purchase mail, I still might to use under the scale." That stuff gets heavy fast. |
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I once found a whole box of those tiny key rings---I guess you call them 'split rings' (?)---hundreds and hundreds of them. I called myself going to make some mail out of them. 
I think I made it to about 100 or so rings before I said ---nope, too hard. 
