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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 0:10:51 GMT
As you may have read in my post in the review section, I believed that I owned a non tempered wallhanger sword., but now I'm not so sure.... Initially I thought that it was tempered, because I could bend it with my hands and it sprang smartly back to true. Then, after watching some great feats of bend testing on Sword Buyer's Guide, I decided to really have at it, and bent it over my knee. This caused the blade to take a set, and I thought that it wasn't tempered Now I'm having second (third?) thoughts. I have bent the blade back so it's straight, and when I try bending it using only my hands, it springs back really well. I sometimes make maille out of spring washers, and I have to bend them open and closed. Even though they are spring tempered steel, if you apply enough force they will bend. Now I'm thinking that I may have done the same thing with my sword.... If it wasn't heat treated, would it spring back much at all, or would it take a set without too much trying? If I bend it by hand alone, I can't make it bend permanently, and I've got reasonably strong hands. Can anyone tell me how far I should be able to safely bend my blade without it taking a set? If a properly heat treated blade was bent too far, would it be more likely to snap or take a set?
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Post by oos3thoo on Jul 22, 2008 3:40:20 GMT
To my knowledge (Which isn't much) it wouldn't spring back.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 4:05:57 GMT
Now I'm having second (third?) thoughts. I have bent the blade back so it's straight, and when I try bending it using only my hands, it springs back really well. It took the greater force of your knee for it to take a set the first time, so I would expect the same now, even though it has been weakened by the first set. Give it a set often enough, and you'll be able to do it with your hands... If it wasn't heat treated, I'd expect it to take a set very readily, although you'll still get resilience until you exceed the threshold. That would depend on various factors (length of blade, steel type, degree of hardness, etc.). There is no "standard" distance. BUT a very well-made sword can be bent out to 60 degrees or more and return to true. But I'd not want to do that more than once (actually, I'll let the destructive testers do that stuff). I'd expect a set if done slowly. But do it too rapidly, and it could conceivably break. But I can't imagine anyone doing that intentionally. I'm not an expert, you understand, but that is my understanding of things. I'll let the real experts correct me where/if I am wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 8:52:50 GMT
It took the greater force of your knee for it to take a set the first time, so I would expect the same now, even though it has been weakened by the first set. Give it a set often enough, and you'll be able to do it with your hands... Wouldn't it work harden, thus making it harder to bend?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 22, 2008 14:13:39 GMT
Wouldn't it work harden, thus making it harder to bend? If you bend a paperclip backwards and forwards repeatedly, does it get stronger? or weaker, eventually breaking? There is a feel for when you've taken it too far. From your description it sounds like it is heat treated. Flexing it is not a good way to find out. IF you have to flex something to see if it will, then going about 4" out of line should be enough. However there's a smarter test that wont leave you with a bent and, yes, weakened, sword. What youd do is take a file and very lightly run it across the steel. If you feel it trying to grab easily, then it is not heat treated. If it skates across then it is heat treated.
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Post by rammstein on Jul 22, 2008 15:37:51 GMT
Brenno how the heck does that file test work? Sounds weird!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 16:02:00 GMT
I'm not sure I agree about the paperclip thing, as you bend a paperclip the steel becomes harder and it actually gets more and more difficult to bend. Of course, if you do it enough times, the wire hardens to the point that it becomes brittle, and then it snaps.
Of course, 'stronger' and 'weaker' depend on the context. What we're really talking about is hardness vs. toughness. A file is very hard but snaps easily (like the paperclip after sufficient bending) but annealed steel is very tough (like the paperclip before bending)
You're right about the file thing, I slapped myself on the forehead for not thinking of it ;D
Sure enough, a file does skate over the surface without too much biting, but if pressure is applied, it will file the metal. This is to be expected, as if a sword was as hard as a file, it would shatter easily.
Thanks for the tip, I'm satisfied now that it is heat treated, though perhaps not as well as a higher end sword.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 22, 2008 16:16:57 GMT
Drb, you may be right on the paperclip thing. Maybe it's better described as a memory. The sword 'remembers' the bent position and is more happy to adopt it.
Files will of course bite with pressure. It's another one of those 'feel' things. You'd only do it very lightly. Files are great for reshaping and sharpening blades. I'm glad your sword is heat treated. You mentioned the dreaded 'W' word (wallhanger). Is it definately full tang and firmly held together? Is it a strongblade?
Ramm, basically is has to do with the fact that a file is very hard and sharp, it will grab the soft steel agressively, however a heat treated steel being hard too (though not as hard) will resist being bitten.
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Post by rammstein on Jul 22, 2008 16:20:32 GMT
Will this leave scratches on the surface of the sword though? Even a heat treated one?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 16:25:32 GMT
Brenno how the heck does that file test work? Sounds weird! A file is made of very hard steel, so if you drag it over the surface of softer steel, its teeth will 'bite' into it. On very soft (ie not heat treated) steel, it will 'bite' quite easily, but on harder steel it won't cut in so readily and will 'skate' across the surface. Obviously a file is a lot harder than a properly heat treated sword blade, so you can sharpen a sword with a file, you just have to apply more pressure.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 16:28:42 GMT
Will this leave scratches on the surface of the sword though? Even a heat treated one? Yes, because a file is much harder than the blade, but not too badly as long as you don't press too hard. My test left some very slight scratches, (I think I may have been a little too gung ho at first) but I had already 'unpolished' the blade anyway so they were easy to get rid of.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 22, 2008 17:02:25 GMT
Unpolished is the way to go on a user. I like about 240 grit. it's really easy to remove any spots or scratches with 240, and then walk away, and it looks sweet. Low fuss, looks great.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 18:52:54 GMT
Yup, I think it looks much better than a mirror polish, makes the sword look 'purposeful' rather than pretty My sword arrived with a mirror polish and I thought it looked a bit 'fake' if you know what I mean? First thing I did was to scrub the blade with emery cloth, and now it looks like something you could use in battle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, historical pieces wouldn't have had a highly polished finish would they? It seems that the more expensive replicas don't either.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 23, 2008 15:28:16 GMT
Albion and Atrims are not mirror polished, Odin Blades aren't either. From what I hear historical swords never were either. It wouldn't last 2 seconds.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Jul 23, 2008 16:09:43 GMT
Whether a blade (or anything) will flex or not is not a function of heat treatment, it is a function of geometry, i.e., the shape of the blade.
A good historical style of finish can be achieved by sanding the blade to a 500 grit finish, then scrubbing it with wire wool. I believe Albion use this method.
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