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Post by schnitzelsandwich on May 26, 2019 3:41:36 GMT
I don't know how effective moulinets are with a straight blade to be honest.
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Post by elbrittania39 on May 26, 2019 3:54:26 GMT
Oh perfect! That's the one I'd recommend anyway. Yeah honestly if you love that book, then I'd say Polish saber is for you. What do you think of this video: vs. this: Doesn't seem too different. I could be wrong though. I just dont understand why you'd want to get a historic sword to practice it ahistorically. I mean, knock yourself out, its your money, but I wouldnt do it.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 26, 2019 4:00:54 GMT
Would a polish saber be good if we are talking about saber usage? You're asking a very biased source lol. I absolutely adore Polish saber, however I think it's only fair to tell you its big problem: no treatises. Most of what we use to learn Polish saber is reconstruction based on messer, kilij, dussac, and early military saber. Throw in a little frog DNA and presto! Polish saber. Another problem is few available options. Really only Cold Steel and Del Tin make replicas, with Del Tin being the far superior of the two if you like the cross guard and massive yelman (not my taste). There are Czech and Polish szabla smiths making faithful replicas for very reasonable prices.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 26, 2019 4:18:18 GMT
Can arming sword alone be used like a saber or no? To some degree, yes. I think adapting broadsword/backsword systems as a basis for using an arming sword without a shield is a better fit than sabre.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on May 26, 2019 4:23:02 GMT
Can arming sword alone be used like a saber or no? To some degree, yes. I think adapting broadsword/backsword systems as a basis for using an arming sword without a shield is a better fit than sabre. I would be tempted to say Messer systems wouldn't be horrible either, if you avoid most flat based stuff
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 26, 2019 5:00:13 GMT
You're asking a very biased source lol. I absolutely adore Polish saber, however I think it's only fair to tell you its big problem: no treatises. Most of what we use to learn Polish saber is reconstruction based on messer, kilij, dussac, and early military saber. Throw in a little frog DNA and presto! Polish saber. Another problem is few available options. Really only Cold Steel and Del Tin make replicas, with Del Tin being the far superior of the two if you like the cross guard and massive yelman (not my taste). I think that's a strength of polish saber. My current issue with the way training is done in HEMA is that rather than using the treatises as good way to check if you are doing it correctly, they just copy it. If you want to learn how to fence, and I mean really fence as they did back then, you gotta learn the old fashioned way. You have to allow yourself to get hurt to get the proper reactions ingrained. That's not how all hema fencers train... and that's actually the disadvantage of the polish sabre fencing of today. It can be totally and utterly influenced by tournament or sparring game rules, whereas a treatise already written was written in a time where the techniques need to be effective. Now I'm not saying modern polish sabre is influenced by tournament rules, but without an actual manual to go back and see "oh that's why they didn't or did do x And y" it's easy to muddy waters. For instance, there's not much use of the false edge cut in some military sabre manuals despite most military sabres having the capacity for a sharp false edge. This due to the false edge cut being a generally weak on in regards to needing to quickly and efficiently incapacite a foe or enemy soldier before they do the same to you. For another example, it's very easy to do a zwerchau sort of movement with a single stick. Try with a real sword and retain edge alignment and this becomes much more difficult and results in usually poor quality cuts. To your arming sword question again - the hilt design is a huge part here. The wheel pommel design seen on most and other longer pommel types are not conducive to using a sword by itself with the very limited hand protection.
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Post by elbrittania39 on May 26, 2019 5:05:04 GMT
I think that's a strength of polish saber. My current issue with the way training is done in HEMA is that rather than using the treatises as good way to check if you are doing it correctly, they just copy it. If you want to learn how to fence, and I mean really fence as they did back then, you gotta learn the old fashioned way. You have to allow yourself to get hurt to get the proper reactions ingrained. That's not how all hema fencers train... and that's actually the disadvantage of the polish sabre fencing of today. It can be totally and utterly influenced by tournament or sparring game rules, whereas a treatise already written was written in a time where the techniques need to be effective. Now I'm not saying modern polish sabre is influenced by tournament rules, but without an actual manual to go back and see "oh that's why they didn't or did do x And y" it's easy to muddy waters. For instance, there's not much use of the false edge cut in some military sabre manuals despite most military sabres having the capacity for a sharp false edge. This due to the false edge cut being a generally weak on in regards to needing to quickly and efficiently incapacite a foe or enemy soldier before they do the same to you. For another example, it's very easy to do a zwerchau sort of movement with a single stick. Try with a real sword and retain edge alignment and this becomes much more difficult and results in usually poor quality cuts. To your arming sword question again - the hilt design is a huge part here. The wheel pommel design seen on most and other longer pommel types are not conducive to using a sword by itself with the very limited hand protection. For what it's worth, I can zwerchau with my Szabla by placing my thumb on the langet. Was that done? No clue, but it feels good in the hand.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 26, 2019 5:08:36 GMT
That's not how all hema fencers train... and that's actually the disadvantage of the polish sabre fencing of today. It can be totally and utterly influenced by tournament or sparring game rules, whereas a treatise already written was written in a time where the techniques need to be effective. Now I'm not saying modern polish sabre is influenced by tournament rules, but without an actual manual to go back and see "oh that's why they didn't or did do x And y" it's easy to muddy waters. For instance, there's not much use of the false edge cut in some military sabre manuals despite most military sabres having the capacity for a sharp false edge. This due to the false edge cut being a generally weak on in regards to needing to quickly and efficiently incapacite a foe or enemy soldier before they do the same to you. For another example, it's very easy to do a zwerchau sort of movement with a single stick. Try with a real sword and retain edge alignment and this becomes much more difficult and results in usually poor quality cuts. To your arming sword question again - the hilt design is a huge part here. The wheel pommel design seen on most and other longer pommel types are not conducive to using a sword by itself with the very limited hand protection. For what it's worth, I can zwerchau with my Szabla by placing my thumb on the langet. Was that done? No clue, but it feels good in the hand. Interesting. What is your swords PoB? I've tried it in sparring and it always has felt too weak to be a confident strike. Cut No. 6/5 all the way though.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 26, 2019 5:20:28 GMT
For what it's worth OP, I'm shorter than you and enjoy the reach and offense/defense capabilities of a rapier and dagger. Blade refusal all the way.
I would reccomend rapier and dagger to anyone wanting a self defense sword combo.
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Post by elbrittania39 on May 26, 2019 5:43:45 GMT
For what it's worth, I can zwerchau with my Szabla by placing my thumb on the langet. Was that done? No clue, but it feels good in the hand. Interesting. What is your swords PoB? I've tried it in sparring and it always has felt too weak to be a confident strike. Cut No. 6/5 all the way though. about 6.5 inches
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Post by schnitzelsandwich on May 26, 2019 19:18:09 GMT
I think that's a strength of polish saber. My current issue with the way training is done in HEMA is that rather than using the treatises as good way to check if you are doing it correctly, they just copy it. If you want to learn how to fence, and I mean really fence as they did back then, you gotta learn the old fashioned way. You have to allow yourself to get hurt to get the proper reactions ingrained. That's not how all hema fencers train... and that's actually the disadvantage of the polish sabre fencing of today. It can be totally and utterly influenced by tournament or sparring game rules, whereas a treatise already written was written in a time where the techniques need to be effective. Now I'm not saying modern polish sabre is influenced by tournament rules, but without an actual manual to go back and see "oh that's why they didn't or did do x And y" it's easy to muddy waters. For instance, there's not much use of the false edge cut in some military sabre manuals despite most military sabres having the capacity for a sharp false edge. This due to the false edge cut being a generally weak on in regards to needing to quickly and efficiently incapacite a foe or enemy soldier before they do the same to you. For another example, it's very easy to do a zwerchau sort of movement with a single stick. Try with a real sword and retain edge alignment and this becomes much more difficult and results in usually poor quality cuts. To your arming sword question again - the hilt design is a huge part here. The wheel pommel design seen on most and other longer pommel types are not conducive to using a sword by itself with the very limited hand protection. Many sabers were used by themselves and had limited hand protection as well. The Avar and Magyar sabers come to mind. The saber of Charlemagne also comes to mind. I know the Avars and Magyars were essentially horsemen. The Mongols as well. Yet I'm sure they used it by itself. If hand protection is the only factor of the arming sword that makes it difficult to use by itself, then it will contrasts with a bunch of other historical examples of users using it solo. Is it the weight of the sword that makes it not optimal, or the wide shape of the blade that makes it so? I can't see why hand protection would be the only component.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 26, 2019 19:59:32 GMT
There is actually evidence that the Avar and Magyars used shields. From MyArmoury - Mongolian shield reference www.viahistoria.com/SilverHorde/research/MongolShield.htmlActually another reason why I wouldn't choose to use the medieval arming sword alone from my own experience in handling and sparring with them is in my post you quoted The arming sword evolved with shields. Once shields became less common we see swords like the basket hilts, schiavona, sidesword, rapiers, and later on smallswords and military sabres with comprehensive hand protection. In the video you link of people sparring with arming swords the brown jacket gets hit in the hand, a blow that would likely have been stopped by a knuckle bow or bars.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 26, 2019 20:21:01 GMT
If you don't intend to actually practice swordsmanship, and are absolutely dead set on getting an arming sword, just get one.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 26, 2019 20:43:26 GMT
If you don't intend to actually practice swordsmanship, and are absolutely dead set on getting an arming sword, just get one. I agree with this. The odds of getting into a sword fight you didn't start are very low, pretty much everywhere. If you aren't planning on practicing a particular style, like sword and buckler, I wouldn't be overly concerned about using an arming sword by itself.
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Post by elbrittania39 on May 26, 2019 22:03:52 GMT
If you don't intend to actually practice swordsmanship, and are absolutely dead set on getting an arming sword, just get one. I agree with this. The odds of getting into a sword fight you didn't start are very low, pretty much everywhere. If you aren't planning on practicing a particular style, like sword and buckler, I wouldn't be overly concerned about using an arming sword by itself. The thing is, learning swordsmanship would only matter if your home invader ALSO had a sword lol. Otherwise it doesn't really matter.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 26, 2019 22:12:48 GMT
I agree with this. The odds of getting into a sword fight you didn't start are very low, pretty much everywhere. If you aren't planning on practicing a particular style, like sword and buckler, I wouldn't be overly concerned about using an arming sword by itself. The thing is, learning swordsmanship would only matter if your home invader ALSO had a sword lol. Otherwise it doesn't really matter. That was kind of my point. There isn't any need to worry about hand protection, unless someone is trying to attack your hand.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on May 26, 2019 22:48:12 GMT
If you don't intend to actually practice swordsmanship, and are absolutely dead set on getting an arming sword, just get one. I see that a lot haha "is this zweihander good for protection at a pool?" "well no. Here are some swords typically used in pools throughout history, that better suit the purpose" "yea but can't you do that with a zweihander?" "well. Technically. But it wouldn't be very effective" "can you just say it's the best idea ever so I can justify it to myself?" OP. Just get a dang arming sword. You don't intend to spar with it so it doesn't matter how well suited it is lol
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Post by elbrittania39 on May 26, 2019 22:58:08 GMT
If you don't intend to actually practice swordsmanship, and are absolutely dead set on getting an arming sword, just get one. I see that a lot haha "is this zweihander good for protection at a pool?" "well no. Here are some swords typically used in pools throughout history, that better suit the purpose" "yea but can't you do that with a zweihander?" "well. Technically. But it wouldn't be very effective" "can you just say it's the best idea ever so I can justify it to myself?" OP. Just get a dang arming sword. You don't intend to spar with it so it doesn't matter how well suited it is lol yeah kinda this lol. Ultimately historcal context is very secondary to personal interest
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Post by howler on May 26, 2019 23:42:19 GMT
I reckon the greatest threat you'd probably face, blade wise, is a home invasion by one or two individuals armed with machetes or maybe mall ninja junk katana type. Arming sword with cross guard would do well, but knuckle guards are always nice.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 27, 2019 1:58:16 GMT
It seems like a mountain is being made of a mole hill. Instead of making much over nothing that will never be seriously used, buy the prettiest arming sword, if that’s your fancy, that you can afford, hang it on the wall and admire it.
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