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Post by john1 on May 18, 2019 22:06:28 GMT
On Kult of Athena there are many choices for longswords in the $300-$500 price bracket. I’ve done a bunch of research reading old forum posts and sword reviews - and am now more confused than ever...
One post I read said the Del Tin swords don’t cut as well as the Hanwei and Robin Katana Euro swords - because they were designed with 1mm edges and even after sharpening they just don’t cut as well as ones that were designed as sharps. This post said that in general the Indian and Italian brands were always worse cutters than the Chinese brands for this reason.
Is this a generally accepted view ? Because other posts said Del Tin was much better than Hanwei - but they could have been referring to fit and finish, or how nice the furniture was...
One of my assumptions was that an Albion Squire line sword, that was sharpened, would perform better than a Hanwei or Ronin. However, I found out the Albion sharpening service for the Squire line just grinds a micro bevel onto the edge. How is it’s performance likely to compare to Hanwei or Ronin or Kingston ?
Also, many posts say Deepeka and Windlass are hit-or-miss in terms of grinding, alignment, etc - and go on to say that with swords you generally get what you pay for, and that this includes how well the sword performs, not just how good it looks. This raises 2 questions...
Are the Deepeka and Windlass swords in the $300-$400 range any worse than the Hanwei and Ronin swords around the same price ?
The Del Tin swords definitely cost more, but are also made in Italy and were designed with 1mm edges. So should I assume a $500 Del Tin will outperform a $300 Hanwei ? What about a $400 Hanwei ?
Kingston Arms has some Angus Trim designed swords in the $300 price range. Do these generally outperform the Hanwei and Ronin swords ? How do they perform compared to the Tinker Pierce designed Hanwei swords ?
Legacy Arms seems to have a lot of good reviews and posts singing their praises. As far as I can tell, these are what used to be know as the Gen 2 swords. Is this correct ?
Also, KoA sells only a few Legacy Arms swords. Are the other brands just better performing or a better value than LA now ?
In the $400-$500 range, Dark Sword Armory has lots of choices. How does their performance compare to Hanwei, Ronin, Kingston, and Del Tin ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 22:36:52 GMT
In that price range, it really matters more that the appeal is there. Overall sharpness is often a factor at the user level. If new to sharpening, that can be daunting all by itself. The one Albion squire line sword I had ever handled was a viking and sharpened by Albion. More than ten years have passed, so who knows what a squire line sharp might be like today. I do know I can sharpen most anything and many might surpass my own capability in getting the best edge.
If it were me, at the price point, I would be looking to narrow my list to no more than three swords and then weigh all factors again. The subjective nature of the market means what one might adore, might be a complete turn off to another. Yet others will consider more than one sword to fill a budget but I would go with the best buy in my budget. That "nest" is still going to be a matter of final choice.
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Post by Siward on May 19, 2019 9:41:25 GMT
I think you need to decide what you’re after, as in what makes the purchase a success.
You mention sharpness, which of course is a factor but you can have a sharp blade that handles like a sledgehammer.
You mention performance which tends to refer to handling performance and, for my money at least, is more important than sharpness because you can always sharpen a well performing blade but it’s a bit of a mission to make a poorly balanced sword a good one.
If you want historical accuracy then that complicates things further.
For my personal preference, the Kingston Arms swords are a strong option being fairly good in all three categories.
Ronin Katana, which I don’t have any of, has been recommended by Skallagrim (see you tube) as his goto sub $500 manufacturer.
Deepaka should only really be considered a display rather than working sword manufacturer.
Hanwei & Windlass are hit and miss.
Darksword Armoury, has historical issues, and I don’t want to derail or invite others to derail the thread so I would advise you to check the reviews on this forum and the manufacturers part of the SBG main site.
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Post by MOK on May 19, 2019 11:30:17 GMT
Windlass is hit and miss mostly in terms of design - they seem to base all their historical stuff on photos and reported measurements rather than first hand inspection, which can lead to all sorts of misconceptions (e.g. the otherwise decent "German Bastard Sword" is only as long overall as the original's blade alone) and missed subtleties (e.g. the almost universal absence of proper distal taper). They have some models that are just bad, some that are decent for their price, some that are plain good, and some happy accidents resulting in real gems (like the "Type XIV"). Their materials and craftsmanship are fairly reliably workmanlike, IME, not great but plenty good enough. I would say Hanwei products are typically somewhat nicer than comparable things from Windlass, but they're also correspondingly more expensive. Whether there's any difference in performance depends on the individual products. Hanwei has far fewer outright bad designs than Windlass, but then they also have far fewer different products overall... Deepeeka is really less hit and miss, and more just miss. They have a few things that are passable, and may or may not be worth the money depending on what you're looking for. As for sharpening, by the time I'm done with a 1mm-edged Windlass piece there's zero difference between it and any otherwise similar blade that came sharp from the factory. And that's not saying anything about my sharpening skills, to be clear: that's just what proper sharpening does. Their geometry may be lacking in terms of mass distribution and other such subtler yet crucial points of design, but it's not because they're shipped butterknife blunt. (The same goes for Del Tin, too, obviously.) The standard sharpening services from Albion and KoA have been frequently noted as somewhat crude. They're really less complete sharpening jobs and more like kickstarters for DIY sharpening, IMO.
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Post by markus313 on May 19, 2019 12:04:25 GMT
I`ve been super satisfied with any of the four exemplars I had from these…
They seem to be equivalent to the Ronin Katana Euro 7 and each exemplar I had differed a bit from the other, but all were very, very good for the money (and in general). One was a tad too light in the blade for my taste, but still an awesome sword to use. Tough users with good handling and a great blade profile (no secondary bevel, nice distal taper). Peened construction. A slight loosening of the crossguard after hard striking can be remedied by fastening a piece of boulter around the top of the grip beneath the crossguard or for a more permanent fix by applying some drops of epoxy. Highly recommend these swords.
Stats below.
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Post by john1 on May 19, 2019 19:10:35 GMT
Thanks everyone - I appreciate the insights into the general trends across manufacturers. Deepeka is definitely off my list How does Del Tin compare ? Are they just more expensive because they are made in Italy - or are they significantly better ? In what ways ? What about Legacy Arms ? This will be my 1st European sword, and I’m looking for something that will help me understand a longsword’s pro’s and con’s versus katanas - and plan to subject the sword to lots of dry cutting, wet rolled newspaper cutting, and tire pell bludgeoning. So the characteristics I’m looking for are: 1. historically accurate length / weight / handling (for the Lichtenauer system) 2. good cutting geometry, 3. sturdy construction, and good assembly alignment Unfortunately, Albion, AA and AT swords are outside my budget. Do the swords at the $300, $400, and $500 price points differ in terms of the 3 characteristics above ? Or just in terms of ornate-ness and level of polish ? Are there particular longswords you’d recommend for my uses in the $300-$500 range ?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 20:27:53 GMT
Ideally, you don't really want a sharp for pell work. It is the somewhat dead blows that start stressing the hilts and some will be wiggling faster than others. Although one or the other are usually out of stock, buying both a sharp and blunt Hanwei Tinker might be the way to go. Or, stick with wood or polypropylene/nylon wasters for beating on a pell. Even a big stick or just a broomstick.
My remaining sword fitting the German longsword role is a Del Tin 5157. If looking at that particular model, I'd suggest the 5155 instead. A little stiffer and a few inches shorter overall. They are though two models with very little distal taper. However, my 5157 has cut both mats and empty gallon jugs. Sharpness and technique.
What one person may dislike, another might like quite a bit. Growing into a sword, rather than expecting a sword to be all encompassing greatness can get lost if trying out a lot of swords by buying several along the way. Whatever you end up with, learn the best of the sword and your own growth with it. Big differences between a longsword with 36" of blade and a katana with 29" of blade will generally be both the weight and reach. Other factors between Japanese swordsmanship and German longsword are actually going to show some similarities.
Del Tin has been around a long time and the swords better in overall visual aesthetics but handling can be a bit all over the place and many at the heavier end of the market.
If moving from a katana background, most medieval longswords are going to feel a little nose heavy but some do very well. That 5157 for instance, dances nicely for its weight but the thing is 51" overall. On the shorter and stiff end of things there are a few Black Prince and the Lucerne out there but cutting can become a real study of form. The XVIa and XVIIIa tpe profiles probably what you'll want to look at.
These other guys are going to know the current market much better than I, as a couple of decades away from when I was buying swords of thew type. The current market is such that you could buy a pair of twins and dedicate one to very sharp cutting and the twin for wasting and training.
Me? I'd go in hock for something from the KOA pre-owned section. While very pretty, the Edward III sword from A&A is one hellacious cutting blade.
I really miss my Black Prince
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Razor
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Post by Razor on May 19, 2019 20:35:15 GMT
Thanks everyone - I appreciate the insights into the general trends across manufacturers. Deepeka is definitely off my list ;) How does Del Tin compare ? Are they just more expensive because they are made in Italy - or are they significantly better ? In what ways ? What about Legacy Arms ? This will be my 1st European sword, and I’m looking for something that will help me understand a longsword’s pro’s and con’s versus katanas - and plan to subject the sword to lots of dry cutting, wet rolled newspaper cutting, and tire pell bludgeoning. So the characteristics I’m looking for are: 1. historically accurate length / weight / handling (for the Lichtenauer system) 2. good cutting geometry, 3. sturdy construction, and good assembly alignment Unfortunately, Albion, AA and AT swords are outside my budget. Do the swords at the $300, $400, and $500 price points differ in terms of the 3 characteristics above ? Or just in terms of ornate-ness and level of polish ? Are there particular longswords you’d recommend for my uses in the $300-$500 range ? From what I remember when Italy passed a law about no sharp swords went, Del Tin started to change their sword for reenactment. Museum Replicas, used to sell Del Tin sword until they switch to thicker reenactment blades and that is when Hank, went to Windlass. Gen2 changed their name to Legacy Arms and later sold it to Case Iberia. Their sword are what we refer to as beaters. They don't really pass your #1 characteristics. I been going to and hosting cutting parties for 11 years(SBG Nor Ca cutting parties 10 years) I've cut, handled, and sharpened a lot of swords. In your price range, it's going to be a hit or miss on edge geometry. So you should learn how to sharpen your sword to get the geometry that you want. I've handled some of the Ronin swords and they feel like a sharpen crowbar. I personally wouldn't but a Darksword and to not derail this thread that is all that I'm going to say. For your price range I would chose Hanwei, Kingdom Arms(I haven't handled their sharps yet), and there are some Windlass that are good. Some people like Cold Steel longswords. So you can look at those to if you like.
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Post by markus313 on May 19, 2019 20:56:02 GMT
I've handled some of the Ronin swords and they feel like a sharpen crowbar. Hmm, the only other RK Euro I have experience with is the #9 Arming sword. Wasn`t very impressed by that either. With the #7 it’s another story – that’s an awesome sword, IMO and I`d prefer any of those I had over the Hanwei and CS offers in that price range.
Have you handled a model #7?
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Post by MOK on May 19, 2019 20:57:03 GMT
Specifically, I've seen favorable reports of Cold Steel Italian Longsword. (Personally I think it looks weird, sort of gangly overall and a bit thick in the wrong places. But apparently that's just me. I strongly dislike Cold Steel as a company, too, so I may be biased.) The Hanwei/Tinker Longsword is similarly priced, and should provide similar performance in a slightly more austere package. As a bonus, there's also a blunt version available, and if you end up liking it you can dress it up easily with replacement hilt components from Printed Armoury. I own one of these myself and it's very pleasant handling, albeit IMO geared more toward point work than cutting, which may be a minus if you're into that. Windlass Battlecry! Bosworth Longsword is another similar option, if you can stomach (or remove, it's not too difficult) the tacticool black coating. The Del Tin 5157 edelweiss mentioned is a popular one, at the upper end of your price range but certainly the prettiest of all these.
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Razor
Senior Forumite
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Post by Razor on May 20, 2019 19:28:01 GMT
I've handled some of the Ronin swords and they feel like a sharpen crowbar. Hmm, the only other RK Euro I have experience with is the #9 Arming sword. Wasn`t very impressed by that either. With the #7 it’s another story – that’s an awesome sword, IMO and I`d prefer any of those I had over the Hanwei and CS offers in that price range.
Have you handled a model #7? No. I haven't handled their model 7. Here it says the belt is made for a left hander. Is your belt also made for a left hander? I'm left handed and that is something that I don't hear to often. www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=RKE7&name=Ronin+Katana+%2D+Two+Handed+Long+Sword+%237
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Post by markus313 on May 20, 2019 22:24:05 GMT
Is your belt also made for a left hander? Bought all of my exemplars from that German site "Schwertshop". They sell them with a scabbard, but without a belt.
Edit: According to info from this thread
these are made from 1045 instead of 1075, like the RK Euro models seem to be. Otherwise they seem to be rather identical. Deriving from my testing, I can fully recommend the 1045 versions of the XVa sword.
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
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Post by Razor on May 22, 2019 6:56:30 GMT
Is your belt also made for a left hander? Bought all of my exemplars from that German site "Schwertshop". They sell them with a scabbard, but without a belt.
Edit: According to info from this thread
these are made from 1045 instead of 1075, like the RK Euro models seem to be. Otherwise they seem to be rather identical. Deriving from my testing, I can fully recommend the 1045 versions of the XVa sword.
Oh yeah? From what I hear from sword smiths now that The new 5160 isn't as good as it used to be. They are switching to 1075 and another steel that I forgot because they are close to 5160.
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Post by markus313 on May 22, 2019 8:11:47 GMT
From what I hear from sword smiths now that The new 5160 isn't as good as it used to be. They are switching to 1075 and another steel that I forgot because they are close to 5160. Just when I finally came around to order an H/T Longsword… Ah well…
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 22, 2019 9:24:48 GMT
Afaik 5160 is/was better for the smithes because they had less quenching failures with it. I'm not sure if a customer ever experiences the difference between 5160 and 1060 on an otherwise similar blade. What would that be, taking a set after a 100° bending instead of 99°?
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Post by markus313 on May 22, 2019 9:35:32 GMT
You make my day, Andi
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Post by wardenofthenorth on May 22, 2019 12:37:17 GMT
Have Jimbo Curry customize a H/T Longsword for you. He will fix any issues with the sharpening of the stock blades and make a much more comfy new grip for them. Can also add a new pommel and hilt from Printed Armory. All that together will run less than $500 and will perform like a sword that costs twice that amount.
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Post by snowbite on May 22, 2019 12:44:13 GMT
Just when I finally came around to order an H/T Longsword… Ah well… Markus, where did you find one? I've been looking for a month now.
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Post by markus313 on May 22, 2019 13:03:08 GMT
Markus, where did you find one? I've been looking for a month now. Ordered from Finland (they had one in stock)…
They are available here in Germany, but the price…
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Post by Silent on May 22, 2019 13:40:17 GMT
I think this is from old stock/batch on hanwei swords so they should be ok, for costumization
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