Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on May 11, 2019 1:10:21 GMT
I feel the same way, in the sense I would just call it a katana. But this view, for me, also finds the need to call a Chinese made katana a nihinto to be in the same catagory as seeing them with any prestige. Or should I say... Katagory Kata-gory? Isn't that what happens when you mess up while handling a katana? I like your way of thinking
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pgandy
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Senior Forumite
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Post by pgandy on May 11, 2019 1:14:02 GMT
Katanas are what got me interested in swords. After an assortment of tools/weapons such as kukris, pinuti, machetes, etc. and with so many videos promoting the “katana myth” I succumbed. After two and an iaito the magic wore off and European swords took over.
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Post by nddave on May 11, 2019 1:18:12 GMT
You know its funny how so much prestige is given and or made up in regards to katana whereas other swords styles aren't. I mean would anyone argue a reproduction Frankish Geibig Type 2, English Oakeshott Type XVIII or even a Highland Scottish Broadsword were not those swords simply because they were made in China or India? No of course not. This whole stigma over Japanese tradition and Nihonto is definitely over swelled compared to the rest of the sword world. To much fluff for one sword if you ask me and I'm a katana fan, lol. Overall just call the damned things Katana and get over the hype and horse manure. Calling a cheap chinese repro katana, a Howard Clark katana, or even a Japanese made katana a "Nihonto" doesn't make them anymore mystical or impressive than simply calling it a katana. I feel the same way, in the sense I would just call it a katana. But this view, for me, also finds the need to call a Chinese made katana a nihinto to be in the same catagory as seeing them with any prestige. Or should I say... Katagory Its kinda a personal peeve of mine im regards to the Japanese and their language in general. Why does everything need to be so specifially named? Trying to learn the languange is difficult due to this as everything has such specific connotations and uses it gets very confusing. Makes me laugh though with the subtitles in movies though as a 2 minute speech from one actor will usually be maybe a sentence and a half in English.
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,090
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Post by admin on May 11, 2019 2:33:46 GMT
I feel the same way, in the sense I would just call it a katana. But this view, for me, also finds the need to call a Chinese made katana a nihinto to be in the same catagory as seeing them with any prestige. Or should I say... Katagory Its kinda a personal peeve of mine im regards to the Japanese and their language in general. Why does everything need to be so specifially named? Trying to learn the languange is difficult due to this as everything has such specific connotations and uses it gets very confusing. Makes me laugh though with the subtitles in movies though as a 2 minute speech from one actor will usually be maybe a sentence and a half in English. Tell me about it, Japanese is apparently the hardest language in the world - I have heard that when the CIA train operatives in a language they can usually achieve fluency in 3 months with a super intensive language course. With Japanese, it takes 2 years.. Doesn't mean it is 8 times harder to learn than any other language, but - it's definitely very complicated..
Kanji, Kanji compound words and complex grammar is the nightmare of it all. Also many sentences are not clear as to who is doing what or even what is happening until the final world (SOV language, only Turkish and Korean also share this pattern) so while we say 'I eat an apple' Japanese will say 'Apple (particle) eat'.
When I speak Japanese I can't think in English and translate to Japanese - I need to switch to actually thinking in Japanese to make it work and many sentences simply cannot be translated at all.
Take 頑張って 'Ganbatte' as an example. It's typically used as a term of encouragement where we might use the term 'good luck' though 'don't give up' but literally means 'endure it'. But it would seem cold to us if a friend told us their financial issues and you replied 'good luck with that' but that's what the Japanese would reply.
The language is also highly formalized and pattern sentences with a set question and set reply with no variation are extremely common. Actually, in many cases - the less words used the better. When I was teaching English I there I used to have to catch a pretty early train and would get the 'Morning Setto' breakfast. There would be a long line of businessmen and if they had been there before, the staff had to recall what that customer ordred before, and if they didn;t say anything, that's how they would order. Just show up in the line and without a single word get their order and without a single word walk away to eat it by themselves.
If they had not been there before or wanted something different today (which as far as I could see, the latter was extremely rare) then they might say, for example, 'Morningu. Hotto' which wasn't a friendly comment about the weather that morning but rather an order for the Morning breakfast set with hot rather than iced coffee..
No please, no thank you, no 'hey, how you going' - that would all be considered eccentric. Less words the better - and with the SOV pattern they could say a complete sentence with a single word, and whenever possible the subject is left out and sentences are often left incomplete (my favorite expression is at the end of a sentence かもしれない "Ka Mo Shirenai" which kind of negates what was said before to soften it or delete it, so you say something, and then withdraw it and make it neutral. I said it so much and as a kind of joke that my Japanese friends started using it as a joke too..! So we might say 'What I good idea - could be, maybe not..')
Anyway, back to topic - Japanese are highly detail orientated, every interaction has a 'shikata' (way to do it) and they take pride in trying to follow the set process as precisely as possible. If there are 10 steps to a process, they will follow each and every step even if it seems redundant because that is the way it needs to be done - and this can make them slow to change (and why every home and office still uses FAX machines and Windows XP - I kid you not..)
This level of attention to detail applies to their swords as well. Every part and every angle has a name and a way it is made and used and fits together. Same with the training - every action is drilled down to try and make it more and more precise in and endless quest for perfection.
A lot of it seems redundant, but the end results are far from it.
Here's another example - I was watching Japanese TV with my daughter once and the show focused on a Dojo in the USA that taught Kendo, so a high level Kendo guy went over there to train pretending to be a beginner. The US teacher was a nice enough guy, but what he was teaching actually made the Kendo guy sad. Later he revealed he was a Kendoka and they organized a friendly match with the US Sensei and his top students and they literally could not even move before the Japanese Kendoka nailed them again and again with almost superhuman speed and accuracy. In the end, the US teacher humbled himself and asked to learn and they became firm friends - was really nice to see actually..
So, for Japanese swords. Yes, Nihontou 日本刀 literally translates as 'Japan Sword' but insinuates it is made in Japan by a Master Sword Smith. Shinken 真剣 means 'real/true + sword/saber/blade' and could be used to refer to any real sword, not necessarily Japanese (but again, the insinuation is that it is). Shinken is also used to mean '(deadly) serious' or to infer you/they really mean something..
In practice, most of the swords made outside of Japan would likely be referred to as 模擬刀 'Mogito' which means 'imitation mock sword' (though this includes iaito, iaito meaning a sword for iai (practice) and assumes it is not a 'Shinken'/real sword).
High end Chinese made swords such as those by Bugei, Hanwei, Project X, etc have sometimes been respected enough to be called 'Shinken' if they are well constructed and the blades of good quality. But no Japanese would ever refer to them as a Nihontou.
This is why Thaitsuki Nihonto got savaged on SFI in the early days, they probably would not have received the same reaction if they had called themselves 'Thaitsuki Shinken'..
Finally, the mystique factor..
A Japanese sword maker is half metal worker and half Shinto priest - and a sword made in the traditional way is considered to be a living thing with a soul, a personality and its own inherent power. Take for example the swords made by Muramasa - the Tokugawa Shogunate actually outlawed all his swords fearing their curse and the Shogun was even accidentally cut by one when handling it..
That attitude is not unique to swords but most objects, plants, animals, etc. Japanese dolls were considered to be kind of alive, and they even extend this attitude to robots and machines..
In the west, we also have tales of magic swords or swords with curses or unique properties. But not every sword - most no matter how nicely made were only considered to be a tool of the trade, not a living companion or even a friend.
Training methods and fighting techniques were also infused with semi-mystical qualities. Remember that the ultimate Samurai was supposed to go about his business with a zen like calm, hyper aware of everything happening around him but also relaxed and unconcerned. They were told to spend a goodly amount of time every day imagining themselves being killed in all manner of ways and accept it without fear or worry.
Where things get messed up on forums is when people assume that because the swords were considered to be living and made with a dedication to an exact process and quest for absolute perfection that they are therefore superior. In truth, they are simply regarded very differently.
So long story paraphrased - it is best practice to refer to a Japanese made sword as a Nihonto, entry level swords as 'Mogito' and Nihonto AND the best reproductions made in China, Korea or USA could both fall under the broad classification of 'Shinken' - though only after careful inspection and testing.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 11, 2019 3:07:37 GMT
I like the term Shinken because in German it means "ham"!
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Post by Cottontail Customs on May 11, 2019 3:08:13 GMT
You know its funny how so much prestige is given and or made up in regards to katana whereas other swords styles aren't. I mean would anyone argue a reproduction Frankish Geibig Type 2, English Oakeshott Type XVIII or even a Highland Scottish Broadsword were not those swords simply because they were made in China or India? No of course not. This whole stigma over Japanese tradition and Nihonto is definitely over swelled compared to the rest of the sword world. To much fluff for one sword if you ask me and I'm a katana fan, lol. Overall just call the damned things Katana and get over the hype and horse manure. Calling a cheap chinese repro katana, a Howard Clark katana, or even a Japanese made katana a "Nihonto" doesn't make them anymore mystical or impressive than simply calling it a katana. Sometimes it's simply a matter of efficiency. when in certain conversations or dealings with certain groups or people, it can be much easier to understand each other when the proper terminology is used. Same with any hobby, collectible, etc. It's like going into a car group referring to everything there only as a vehicle or a gun group using only the term gun, despite how many types and classifications there are. You can do it that way but it would probably be a lot easier using more accurate terms. Nothing wrong with knowing more about the things we like.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 11, 2019 3:51:05 GMT
admin great anecdote, that was a very fun read.
And I agree with what others have said, it's really not all that complex.
They all are modified forms of the word 'sword'. They all have specific meanings/contexts.
Nihonto= Nihon (Japan) to (sword)=Sword of Japan, Japanese origin (so a sword that is itself made in Japan) Daito= Dai (Great) to (sword)= greatsword, longsword Shoto= Sho (small) to (sword)= smallsword, shortsword Shinken= Shin (true/fundament) ken(sword)= true sword, a live blade Uchigatana= Uchi (strike) gatana (sword)= striking sword, sword to strike with katana= sword
So calling a Hanwei sword a katana is fair, calling it a shinken is appropriate, calling it a daito is also fair game, but it can't be a nihonto.
It's like debating bourbon vs. whiskey vs. whisky, all three are different and aren't really interchangeable. Saying they're synonymous ignores their nature/context (where they come from and how they're made).
Katagory kombat!
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Post by nddave on May 11, 2019 3:51:31 GMT
Its kinda a personal peeve of mine im regards to the Japanese and their language in general. Why does everything need to be so specifially named? Trying to learn the languange is difficult due to this as everything has such specific connotations and uses it gets very confusing. Makes me laugh though with the subtitles in movies though as a 2 minute speech from one actor will usually be maybe a sentence and a half in English. Tell me about it, Japanese is apparently the hardest language in the world - I have heard that when the CIA train operatives in a language they can usually achieve fluency in 3 months with a super intensive language course. With Japanese, it takes 2 years.. Doesn't mean it is 8 times harder to learn than any other language, but - it's definitely very complicated.. Kanji, Kanji compound words and complex grammar is the nightmare of it all. Also many sentences are not clear as to who is doing what or even what is happening until the final world (SOV language, only Turkish and Korean also share this pattern) so while we say 'I eat an apple' Japanese will say 'Apple (particle) eat'. When I speak Japanese I can't think in English and translate to Japanese - I need to switch to actually thinking in Japanese to make it work and many sentences simply cannot be translated at all.
Take 頑張って 'Ganbatte' as an example. It's typically used as a term of encouragement where we might use the term 'good luck' though 'don't give up' but literally means 'endure it'. But it would seem cold to us if a friend told us their financial issues and you replied 'good luck with that' but that's what the Japanese would reply. The language is also highly formalized and pattern sentences with a set question and set reply with no variation are extremely common. Actually, in many cases - the less words used the better. When I was teaching English I there I used to have to catch a pretty early train and would get the 'Morning Setto' breakfast. There would be a long line of businessmen and if they had been there before, the staff had to recall what that customer ordred before, and if they didn;t say anything, that's how they would order. Just show up in the line and without a single word get their order and without a single word walk away to eat it by themselves.
If they had not been there before or wanted something different today (which as far as I could see, the latter was extremely rare) then they might say, for example, 'Morningu. Hotto' which wasn't a friendly comment about the weather that morning but rather an order for the Morning breakfast set with hot rather than iced coffee.. No please, no thank you, no 'hey, how you going' - that would all be considered eccentric. Less words the better - and with the SOV pattern they could say a complete sentence with a single word, and whenever possible the subject is left out and sentences are often left incomplete (my favorite expression is at the end of a sentence かもしれない "Ka Mo Shirenai" which kind of negates what was said before to soften it or delete it, so you say something, and then withdraw it and make it neutral. I said it so much and as a kind of joke that my Japanese friends started using it as a joke too..! So we might say 'What I good idea - could be, maybe not..') Anyway, back to topic - Japanese are highly detail orientated, every interaction has a 'shikata' (way to do it) and they take pride in trying to follow the set process as precisely as possible. If there are 10 steps to a process, they will follow each and every step even if it seems redundant because that is the way it needs to be done - and this can make them slow to change (and why every home and office still uses FAX machines and Windows XP - I kid you not..) This level of attention to detail applies to their swords as well. Every part and every angle has a name and a way it is made and used and fits together. Same with the training - every action is drilled down to try and make it more and more precise in and endless quest for perfection.
A lot of it seems redundant, but the end results are far from it.
Here's another example - I was watching Japanese TV with my daughter once and the show focused on a Dojo in the USA that taught Kendo, so a high level Kendo guy went over there to train pretending to be a beginner. The US teacher was a nice enough guy, but what he was teaching actually made the Kendo guy sad. Later he revealed he was a Kendoka and they organized a friendly match with the US Sensei and his top students and they literally could not even move before the Japanese Kendoka nailed them again and again with almost superhuman speed and accuracy. In the end, the US teacher humbled himself and asked to learn and they became firm friends - was really nice to see actually.. So, for Japanese swords. Yes, Nihontou 日本刀 literally translates as 'Japan Sword' but insinuates it is made in Japan by a Master Sword Smith. Shinken 真剣 means 'real/true + sword/saber/blade' and could be used to refer to any real sword, not necessarily Japanese (but again, the insinuation is that it is). Shinken is also used to mean '(deadly) serious' or to infer you/they really mean something.. In practice, most of the swords made outside of Japan would likely be referred to as 模擬刀 'Mogito' which means 'imitation mock sword' (though this includes iaito, iaito meaning a sword for iai (practice) and assumes it is not a 'Shinken'/real sword). High end Chinese made swords such as those by Bugei, Hanwei, Project X, etc have sometimes been respected enough to be called 'Shinken' if they are well constructed and the blades of good quality. But no Japanese would ever refer to them as a Nihontou.
This is why Thaitsuki Nihonto got savaged on SFI in the early days, they probably would not have received the same reaction if they had called themselves 'Thaitsuki Shinken'.. Finally, the mystique factor..
A Japanese sword maker is half metal worker and half Shinto priest - and a sword made in the traditional way is considered to be a living thing with a soul, a personality and its own inherent power. Take for example the swords made by Muramasa - the Tokugawa Shogunate actually outlawed all his swords fearing their curse and the Shogun was even accidentally cut by one when handling it..
That attitude is not unique to swords but most objects, plants, animals, etc. Japanese dolls were considered to be kind of alive, and they even extend this attitude to robots and machines..
In the west, we also have tales of magic swords or swords with curses or unique properties. But not every sword - most no matter how nicely made were only considered to be a tool of the trade, not a living companion or even a friend.
Training methods and fighting techniques were also infused with semi-mystical qualities. Remember that the ultimate Samurai was supposed to go about his business with a zen like calm, hyper aware of everything happening around him but also relaxed and unconcerned. They were told to spend a goodly amount of time every day imagining themselves being killed in all manner of ways and accept it without fear or worry.
Where things get messed up on forums is when people assume that because the swords were considered to be living and made with a dedication to an exact process and quest for absolute perfection that they are therefore superior. In truth, they are simply regarded very differently. So long story paraphrased - it is best practice to refer to a Japanese made sword as a Nihonto, entry level swords as 'Mogito' and Nihonto AND the best reproductions made in China, Korea or USA could both fall under the broad classification of 'Shinken' - though only after careful inspection and testing. I get where you're coming from, I'm sure the cultural changes to your environment were quite hard to adapt to living there . Yea the language was too difficult for me to keep up with when I tried learning it back when I was an aspiring Manga/Anime artist. Hard for a poor white boy from Idaho to get a foot in the door, eventuality I just gave up. Yea I understand all the details of the Japanese and their sword art but still find it a little too grand sometimes especially when it is over enamoured by the more ignorant fan people.
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Post by nddave on May 11, 2019 4:46:30 GMT
You know its funny how so much prestige is given and or made up in regards to katana whereas other swords styles aren't. I mean would anyone argue a reproduction Frankish Geibig Type 2, English Oakeshott Type XVIII or even a Highland Scottish Broadsword were not those swords simply because they were made in China or India? No of course not. This whole stigma over Japanese tradition and Nihonto is definitely over swelled compared to the rest of the sword world. To much fluff for one sword if you ask me and I'm a katana fan, lol. Overall just call the damned things Katana and get over the hype and horse manure. Calling a cheap chinese repro katana, a Howard Clark katana, or even a Japanese made katana a "Nihonto" doesn't make them anymore mystical or impressive than simply calling it a katana. Sometimes it's simply a matter of efficiency. when in certain conversations or dealings with certain groups or people, it can be much easier to understand each other when the proper terminology is used. Same with any hobby, collectible, etc. It's like going into a car group referring to everything there only as a vehicle or a gun group using only the term gun, despite how many types and classifications there are. You can do it that way but it would probably be a lot easier using more accurate terms. Nothing wrong with knowing more about the things we like. Oh I understand and respect all that, its more or less the stigma attached to katana or anything Japanese that sometimes just makes me roll my eyes when its taken to the extreme.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 11, 2019 6:11:18 GMT
I like the term Shinken because in German it means "ham"!
...I vote we use the term Shinken exclusively to denote any and all Japanese style weapons from now until the end of time.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 11, 2019 6:15:02 GMT
Plural? Shinken's? Beside joking. Can an Iaito made in Japan be called a Nihonto? Both end with - to! I assume only if it is traditionally forged but blunt.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 6:46:53 GMT
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reptaronice1
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Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 11, 2019 6:53:17 GMT
You know its funny how so much prestige is given and or made up in regards to katana whereas other swords styles aren't. I mean would anyone argue a reproduction Frankish Geibig Type 2, English Oakeshott Type XVIII or even a Highland Scottish Broadsword were not those swords simply because they were made in China or India? No of course not. This whole stigma over Japanese tradition and Nihonto is definitely over swelled compared to the rest of the sword world. To much fluff for one sword if you ask me and I'm a katana fan, lol. Overall just call the damned things Katana and get over the hype and horse manure. Calling a cheap chinese repro katana, a Howard Clark katana, or even a Japanese made katana a "Nihonto" doesn't make them anymore mystical or impressive than simply calling it a katana. I agree the more I thought about it. At the end of the day who cares about terminology. Does not help me learn japanese any better anyway lol.
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reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 11, 2019 6:57:39 GMT
Its kinda a personal peeve of mine im regards to the Japanese and their language in general. Why does everything need to be so specifially named? Trying to learn the languange is difficult due to this as everything has such specific connotations and uses it gets very confusing. Makes me laugh though with the subtitles in movies though as a 2 minute speech from one actor will usually be maybe a sentence and a half in English. Tell me about it, Japanese is apparently the hardest language in the world - I have heard that when the CIA train operatives in a language they can usually achieve fluency in 3 months with a super intensive language course. With Japanese, it takes 2 years.. Doesn't mean it is 8 times harder to learn than any other language, but - it's definitely very complicated..
Kanji, Kanji compound words and complex grammar is the nightmare of it all. Also many sentences are not clear as to who is doing what or even what is happening until the final world (SOV language, only Turkish and Korean also share this pattern) so while we say 'I eat an apple' Japanese will say 'Apple (particle) eat'.
When I speak Japanese I can't think in English and translate to Japanese - I need to switch to actually thinking in Japanese to make it work and many sentences simply cannot be translated at all.
Take 頑張って 'Ganbatte' as an example. It's typically used as a term of encouragement where we might use the term 'good luck' though 'don't give up' but literally means 'endure it'. But it would seem cold to us if a friend told us their financial issues and you replied 'good luck with that' but that's what the Japanese would reply.
The language is also highly formalized and pattern sentences with a set question and set reply with no variation are extremely common. Actually, in many cases - the less words used the better. When I was teaching English I there I used to have to catch a pretty early train and would get the 'Morning Setto' breakfast. There would be a long line of businessmen and if they had been there before, the staff had to recall what that customer ordred before, and if they didn;t say anything, that's how they would order. Just show up in the line and without a single word get their order and without a single word walk away to eat it by themselves.
If they had not been there before or wanted something different today (which as far as I could see, the latter was extremely rare) then they might say, for example, 'Morningu. Hotto' which wasn't a friendly comment about the weather that morning but rather an order for the Morning breakfast set with hot rather than iced coffee..
No please, no thank you, no 'hey, how you going' - that would all be considered eccentric. Less words the better - and with the SOV pattern they could say a complete sentence with a single word, and whenever possible the subject is left out and sentences are often left incomplete (my favorite expression is at the end of a sentence かもしれない "Ka Mo Shirenai" which kind of negates what was said before to soften it or delete it, so you say something, and then withdraw it and make it neutral. I said it so much and as a kind of joke that my Japanese friends started using it as a joke too..! So we might say 'What I good idea - could be, maybe not..')
Anyway, back to topic - Japanese are highly detail orientated, every interaction has a 'shikata' (way to do it) and they take pride in trying to follow the set process as precisely as possible. If there are 10 steps to a process, they will follow each and every step even if it seems redundant because that is the way it needs to be done - and this can make them slow to change (and why every home and office still uses FAX machines and Windows XP - I kid you not..)
This level of attention to detail applies to their swords as well. Every part and every angle has a name and a way it is made and used and fits together. Same with the training - every action is drilled down to try and make it more and more precise in and endless quest for perfection.
A lot of it seems redundant, but the end results are far from it.
Here's another example - I was watching Japanese TV with my daughter once and the show focused on a Dojo in the USA that taught Kendo, so a high level Kendo guy went over there to train pretending to be a beginner. The US teacher was a nice enough guy, but what he was teaching actually made the Kendo guy sad. Later he revealed he was a Kendoka and they organized a friendly match with the US Sensei and his top students and they literally could not even move before the Japanese Kendoka nailed them again and again with almost superhuman speed and accuracy. In the end, the US teacher humbled himself and asked to learn and they became firm friends - was really nice to see actually..
So, for Japanese swords. Yes, Nihontou 日本刀 literally translates as 'Japan Sword' but insinuates it is made in Japan by a Master Sword Smith. Shinken 真剣 means 'real/true + sword/saber/blade' and could be used to refer to any real sword, not necessarily Japanese (but again, the insinuation is that it is). Shinken is also used to mean '(deadly) serious' or to infer you/they really mean something..
In practice, most of the swords made outside of Japan would likely be referred to as 模擬刀 'Mogito' which means 'imitation mock sword' (though this includes iaito, iaito meaning a sword for iai (practice) and assumes it is not a 'Shinken'/real sword).
High end Chinese made swords such as those by Bugei, Hanwei, Project X, etc have sometimes been respected enough to be called 'Shinken' if they are well constructed and the blades of good quality. But no Japanese would ever refer to them as a Nihontou.
This is why Thaitsuki Nihonto got savaged on SFI in the early days, they probably would not have received the same reaction if they had called themselves 'Thaitsuki Shinken'..
Finally, the mystique factor..
A Japanese sword maker is half metal worker and half Shinto priest - and a sword made in the traditional way is considered to be a living thing with a soul, a personality and its own inherent power. Take for example the swords made by Muramasa - the Tokugawa Shogunate actually outlawed all his swords fearing their curse and the Shogun was even accidentally cut by one when handling it..
That attitude is not unique to swords but most objects, plants, animals, etc. Japanese dolls were considered to be kind of alive, and they even extend this attitude to robots and machines..
In the west, we also have tales of magic swords or swords with curses or unique properties. But not every sword - most no matter how nicely made were only considered to be a tool of the trade, not a living companion or even a friend.
Training methods and fighting techniques were also infused with semi-mystical qualities. Remember that the ultimate Samurai was supposed to go about his business with a zen like calm, hyper aware of everything happening around him but also relaxed and unconcerned. They were told to spend a goodly amount of time every day imagining themselves being killed in all manner of ways and accept it without fear or worry.
Where things get messed up on forums is when people assume that because the swords were considered to be living and made with a dedication to an exact process and quest for absolute perfection that they are therefore superior. In truth, they are simply regarded very differently.
So long story paraphrased - it is best practice to refer to a Japanese made sword as a Nihonto, entry level swords as 'Mogito' and Nihonto AND the best reproductions made in China, Korea or USA could both fall under the broad classification of 'Shinken' - though only after careful inspection and testing. I have been learning japanese for about a year now. The whole thing that its the hardest language is bull. Arabic, Tagalog and hinfi are much harder aswell as other asian languages. Japan is very specific about its terms though like you said. Say Watashi wa (Topic of me) Ringo ga (Apple) suki desu (Like) I like apples.
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reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 11, 2019 7:02:27 GMT
Tell me about it, Japanese is apparently the hardest language in the world - I have heard that when the CIA train operatives in a language they can usually achieve fluency in 3 months with a super intensive language course. With Japanese, it takes 2 years.. Doesn't mean it is 8 times harder to learn than any other language, but - it's definitely very complicated.. Kanji, Kanji compound words and complex grammar is the nightmare of it all. Also many sentences are not clear as to who is doing what or even what is happening until the final world (SOV language, only Turkish and Korean also share this pattern) so while we say 'I eat an apple' Japanese will say 'Apple (particle) eat'. When I speak Japanese I can't think in English and translate to Japanese - I need to switch to actually thinking in Japanese to make it work and many sentences simply cannot be translated at all.
Take 頑張って 'Ganbatte' as an example. It's typically used as a term of encouragement where we might use the term 'good luck' though 'don't give up' but literally means 'endure it'. But it would seem cold to us if a friend told us their financial issues and you replied 'good luck with that' but that's what the Japanese would reply. The language is also highly formalized and pattern sentences with a set question and set reply with no variation are extremely common. Actually, in many cases - the less words used the better. When I was teaching English I there I used to have to catch a pretty early train and would get the 'Morning Setto' breakfast. There would be a long line of businessmen and if they had been there before, the staff had to recall what that customer ordred before, and if they didn;t say anything, that's how they would order. Just show up in the line and without a single word get their order and without a single word walk away to eat it by themselves.
If they had not been there before or wanted something different today (which as far as I could see, the latter was extremely rare) then they might say, for example, 'Morningu. Hotto' which wasn't a friendly comment about the weather that morning but rather an order for the Morning breakfast set with hot rather than iced coffee.. No please, no thank you, no 'hey, how you going' - that would all be considered eccentric. Less words the better - and with the SOV pattern they could say a complete sentence with a single word, and whenever possible the subject is left out and sentences are often left incomplete (my favorite expression is at the end of a sentence かもしれない "Ka Mo Shirenai" which kind of negates what was said before to soften it or delete it, so you say something, and then withdraw it and make it neutral. I said it so much and as a kind of joke that my Japanese friends started using it as a joke too..! So we might say 'What I good idea - could be, maybe not..') Anyway, back to topic - Japanese are highly detail orientated, every interaction has a 'shikata' (way to do it) and they take pride in trying to follow the set process as precisely as possible. If there are 10 steps to a process, they will follow each and every step even if it seems redundant because that is the way it needs to be done - and this can make them slow to change (and why every home and office still uses FAX machines and Windows XP - I kid you not..) This level of attention to detail applies to their swords as well. Every part and every angle has a name and a way it is made and used and fits together. Same with the training - every action is drilled down to try and make it more and more precise in and endless quest for perfection.
A lot of it seems redundant, but the end results are far from it.
Here's another example - I was watching Japanese TV with my daughter once and the show focused on a Dojo in the USA that taught Kendo, so a high level Kendo guy went over there to train pretending to be a beginner. The US teacher was a nice enough guy, but what he was teaching actually made the Kendo guy sad. Later he revealed he was a Kendoka and they organized a friendly match with the US Sensei and his top students and they literally could not even move before the Japanese Kendoka nailed them again and again with almost superhuman speed and accuracy. In the end, the US teacher humbled himself and asked to learn and they became firm friends - was really nice to see actually.. So, for Japanese swords. Yes, Nihontou 日本刀 literally translates as 'Japan Sword' but insinuates it is made in Japan by a Master Sword Smith. Shinken 真剣 means 'real/true + sword/saber/blade' and could be used to refer to any real sword, not necessarily Japanese (but again, the insinuation is that it is). Shinken is also used to mean '(deadly) serious' or to infer you/they really mean something.. In practice, most of the swords made outside of Japan would likely be referred to as 模擬刀 'Mogito' which means 'imitation mock sword' (though this includes iaito, iaito meaning a sword for iai (practice) and assumes it is not a 'Shinken'/real sword). High end Chinese made swords such as those by Bugei, Hanwei, Project X, etc have sometimes been respected enough to be called 'Shinken' if they are well constructed and the blades of good quality. But no Japanese would ever refer to them as a Nihontou.
This is why Thaitsuki Nihonto got savaged on SFI in the early days, they probably would not have received the same reaction if they had called themselves 'Thaitsuki Shinken'.. Finally, the mystique factor..
A Japanese sword maker is half metal worker and half Shinto priest - and a sword made in the traditional way is considered to be a living thing with a soul, a personality and its own inherent power. Take for example the swords made by Muramasa - the Tokugawa Shogunate actually outlawed all his swords fearing their curse and the Shogun was even accidentally cut by one when handling it..
That attitude is not unique to swords but most objects, plants, animals, etc. Japanese dolls were considered to be kind of alive, and they even extend this attitude to robots and machines..
In the west, we also have tales of magic swords or swords with curses or unique properties. But not every sword - most no matter how nicely made were only considered to be a tool of the trade, not a living companion or even a friend.
Training methods and fighting techniques were also infused with semi-mystical qualities. Remember that the ultimate Samurai was supposed to go about his business with a zen like calm, hyper aware of everything happening around him but also relaxed and unconcerned. They were told to spend a goodly amount of time every day imagining themselves being killed in all manner of ways and accept it without fear or worry.
Where things get messed up on forums is when people assume that because the swords were considered to be living and made with a dedication to an exact process and quest for absolute perfection that they are therefore superior. In truth, they are simply regarded very differently. So long story paraphrased - it is best practice to refer to a Japanese made sword as a Nihonto, entry level swords as 'Mogito' and Nihonto AND the best reproductions made in China, Korea or USA could both fall under the broad classification of 'Shinken' - though only after careful inspection and testing. I get where you're coming from, I'm sure the cultural changes to your environment were quite hard to adapt to living there . Yea the language was too difficult for me to keep up with when I tried learning it back when I was an aspiring Manga/Anime artist. Hard for a poor white boy from Idaho to get a foot in the door, eventuality I just gave up. Yea I understand all the details of the Japanese and their sword art but still find it a little too grand sometimes especially when it is over enamoured by the more ignorant fan people. I have been learning it for a year now and have got frustrated at times. im only 16 so i have time to devote to it. It takes alot of patience
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 11, 2019 7:04:59 GMT
Nühöntoä (Indeed a real Saxon would pronounce it this way) But we should cut this bs now, lest reptaronice1 reports us to the mod's for derailing his thread. Nah man ur fine. I dont ever report anyone unless It is some type of harrassment.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 11, 2019 7:06:48 GMT
I feel the same way, in the sense I would just call it a katana. But this view, for me, also finds the need to call a Chinese made katana a nihinto to be in the same catagory as seeing them with any prestige. Or should I say... Katagory Its kinda a personal peeve of mine im regards to the Japanese and their language in general. Why does everything need to be so specifially named? Trying to learn the languange is difficult due to this as everything has such specific connotations and uses it gets very confusing. Makes me laugh though with the subtitles in movies though as a 2 minute speech from one actor will usually be maybe a sentence and a half in English. agreed, does it take longer to say "This is my dog" or "kore wa watashi no inu desu" XD u get it.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 11, 2019 7:08:01 GMT
Senk yu ferry motch!
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 11, 2019 7:08:46 GMT
You know its funny how so much prestige is given and or made up in regards to katana whereas other swords styles aren't. I mean would anyone argue a reproduction Frankish Geibig Type 2, English Oakeshott Type XVIII or even a Highland Scottish Broadsword were not those swords simply because they were made in China or India? No of course not. This whole stigma over Japanese tradition and Nihonto is definitely over swelled compared to the rest of the sword world. To much fluff for one sword if you ask me and I'm a katana fan, lol. Overall just call the damned things Katana and get over the hype and horse manure. Calling a cheap chinese repro katana, a Howard Clark katana, or even a Japanese made katana a "Nihonto" doesn't make them anymore mystical or impressive than simply calling it a katana. I feel the same way, in the sense I would just call it a katana. But this view, for me, also finds the need to call a Chinese made katana a nihinto to be in the same catagory as seeing them with any prestige. Or should I say... Katagory bu dum tsst
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on May 11, 2019 7:10:15 GMT
I agree with what all these guys r saying tbh. Japanese has a way of making simple things confusing. The problem is for some words, yes could mean no and vice versa so can be confusing. I try not to get discouraged and take it one step at a time
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