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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2008 6:01:20 GMT
When a company sells a sword as functional, they must assume the customer is going to use the sword for cutting purposes. That's a dangerous assumption. MANY wallhangers are sold as "functional". You can't rely on the seller. This is one of those times where the buyer must truly beware, and use available resources (like here) to find reviews of specific products prior to purchase. No matter how you cut it, a sword is a luxury item. Whether it's a $20 wallhanger, a $300 beater, or a several thousand dollar custom, it's something you can live without. That fact makes buyers a little quick on the draw when it comes to making their purchases. Items of conscious, societal importance(cars, major appliances, computers, etc) will often illicit more research from the average individual since these things play an important role in everyday life. The sword is something few understand, but companies need a larger market than that. Just like undercoating on a Volvo, companies want to add bells and whistles to their swords to make them sound more appealing to Average Joe who doesn't know what the hell he's getting. You can't complain about the companies. It's capitalism. If you want to stay in business, you have to sell, and in order to sell, you've got to expand your customer base to include any idiot you can. It's the buyer's responsibility to understand their purchase. Though, anything that doesn't live up to the understood standards of your purchase should be returned. That's why one should ABSOLUTELY look into the return policies of ANY company they purchase from. If the swords on Website X look awful nice, but are surprisingly inexpensive, and they accept NO returns, that should be a red flag right there.
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Post by salvatore on Jul 20, 2008 6:21:18 GMT
HR: I can see your point, but those things are also "Functional". If we had required a sword for the use of cutting, we get a good one, just as some countries require machetes, they'll get good ones. And hell, you can get a broken down piece of crap to drive to work, to function in modern society, a car is also a luxury to have.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2008 7:00:17 GMT
If you want to stay in business, you have to sell, and in order to sell, you've got to expand your customer base to include any idiot you can. I understand where you were going with this statement, but it does sort of imply that just because someone doesn't know much about what they are buying that makes them an idiot... But like i said i know what you were getting at,... you say this from the view point of the manufacturers. When someones going to spend a few C-notes on a sword or anything for that matter, that they should do their homework first. But then again there are waters that haven't been tested often enough to know what the consumers think, and some people just like to try new things. But even still this isn't like trying out the new double bacon burger from your local fast-food eatery. We're talking dollars here...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2008 7:58:11 GMT
I know at least one company who CNC mills blades and then tempers them in molten salt baths and their steels and blades are used by many knife makers around the world.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jul 20, 2008 8:05:33 GMT
this may not be very mod like ...... but if you lock a bunch of people in a room with no food and a giant pile of horse crap sooner or later some one is going to eat the horse crap (or some one else ;D ) same idea applys to the sword market flood the market with pretty poopy and sooner or later some one will bite
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 20, 2008 15:24:25 GMT
It may not sound very "mod-like" but it's darned sure true. Very similar to an experience a friend of mine had with a junk yard. He asked the owner for an old alternator for his car. The owner produced one that looked similar but a little different. My friend was skeptical, but figured the guy knew what he was talking about when he said it would work. It didn't, and when my friend returned the part, the owner just pointed to the sign that said "No returns, no refunds". When my friend said he'd cheated him, the owner just shrugged and said "There's sucker born every minute. And I just want one shot at each and every one of them." My friend is kind of meek so he just left. I can sympathize, I'VE BEEN that sucker on more than one occasion. And sometimes it was when buying swords off the internet. I can attest that if you don't do your research, you'll probably get a crappy taste in your mouth sooner or later.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2008 16:37:40 GMT
Lots and lots of talk about the difficulties involved in making these things, hand made, not perfect due to lower final cost to consumer, etc. etc., and thats all true and good.
But there is no excuse for a sword maker not assigning a guy to take a quick look at each sword before he seals the box. Many many of these reoccurring complaints / defects are quickly discovered when the box is opened. Not talking about that occasional lemon, talking about reoccurring complaints.
I was purchasing Albion swords when they were a very young and just starting company. My third sword had a major problem. As a quality control guy myself I was amazed at the way the owner of Albion handled the problem. Not only did he take care of me above and beyond my expectations, but he took major steps in his small organization to prevent or minimize the problem from occurring in the future. I must have received a dozen emails from him keeping me updated on what they were doing to fix their operation, and he was totally unaware of my work background. Why did he go to such lengths? Because Albion was new and he recognized the value in building "and maintaining" a good reputation, .................. and he sure did. They have become world recognized as possibly the best in the world of European swords.
Did it cost him to implement extra steps to check and control, you bet it did but he realized the benefit to his overall business success more than outweighed the small additional cost per unit.
It's called good business!
Now, are some of our mid range sword makers approaching their reoccurring problems with a similar attitude? I don't really know, but I have a gut feeling some are not. The Gen2 folks seem to be very proactive in trying to improve and maintain their reputation, but some of the others I question if they really take it that serious. Possibly the market will support their product even if "hey yea we had some problems, but hey stuff happens." is their attitude.
Quality control is not rocket science, it's actually pretty simple. In my spare time I currently manufacture props for Professional Magicians. These are high dollar props with many parts. I only have to sell a couple that are junk for my business to completely go sour. I put about 40 hours into building one, and can surely afford 20 minutes to double check everything just prior to packaging for shipment. Simple cheap quality control, and something which will help to grow my reputation and maintain that growth.
So far there are two mid range sword makers that I will likely not purchase from again. One becaues he sent me a sword with an obvious cosmetic defect and others have shared similar complaints. The second because I keep reading of reoccuring problems with his swords and he has not shown me a real desire to correct or even investigate some of his possible serious problems. Oh the sword I got from him appears to be just fine, but in my mind he is now a hit and miss guy. You might get a good one, you might not. I don't intend to buy products like that.
It's all attutude guys, and both of these guys have lost any of my future business. How many others have they lost? What has poor quality control really cost them in lost customers? Do they really care, or does it really matter? Does the market provide enough customers that it really doesn't matter to them? Are they backloged to the point that they just don't care? I guess time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2008 17:44:22 GMT
It's all about money.
If you can afford the 200-300 range that is gen 2, then you can get a good reputable sub 300 sword that doesn't have much quaility issues. But even they do have some issues...like handles too big and the leather is REALLY bad. If you can't eak out that extra 50 bucks though, you have to bound by lower end windlass/strongblade in the euro swords. That means you just have to deal with it because there is no other options.
For me CS is more important then QC. Let's be realistic here...this is the sub 300 market, things WILL go wrong. It's great that Albion took steps to fix their processes to make better swords...and at their price range, I'm sure they do this on an ongoing process, but at this price range, it isn't something you can do very often. Zectron, you make high end, expensive props. At your price range you can afford to change processes and spend time on QC. But what if you selling props at 30 dollars each? Can you afford it then? You have to accept the reality...your NOT gonna get Albion for this price. However WHEN something goes wrong, I like to know how they are gonna make it right for me. Do they cover shipping costs for faulty items? Do they have a promt replacement time? If not available for a promt replacement, do they offer other options such as money back or choice of different sword?
And of course there is going with reputable and good retailer. I choose AoV for my first sub 300 sword because I knew he would not send me a bad sword. Even if he costs a bit more, I don't mind paying for him checking out each sword before he ships them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 0:55:31 GMT
Never suggested a sub $300 sword maker should do things the way Albion does them. The Albion model demonstrated their desire to take steps to correct problems, and the successes they reaped from those efforts.
There is an old manufacturing quality program called "Do it Rite". The program does not care what your processes are or how you do things, ......... it focuses on the manufacturing floor doing the same thing the same way,each and every time. That's it! All these sub $300 sword makers have sets of processes, they just aren't doing it the same each and every time. They are ending up with "good" lots, and "bad" lots. (Again, we are not talking that occasional lemon, that is a different story) There is variation in their processes. The whole purpose of Quality Control is to eliminate variation, no more no less. The end result is a product which is pretty much the same lot to lot and day to day.
My magic props, ... I do manufacture some cheap props, $12 - $75, and they are final inspected just like the high dollar props. Only difference is the amount of time necessary to quickly inspect them, 2 minutes instead of 20 minutes due to their simplicity.
How long would it take a person to quickly inspect a sword just prior to shipping? I would guess 3 minutes tops, and that's a long time to spend quickly checking for tight fit of hardware, straight true blade, & good fit & finish, ... many of the things we hear reoccurring complaints about.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 1:34:45 GMT
Its all about what people are willing to pay for a given "thing". In general we accept lower quality because it means the price is lower so we have money left over to buy yet more sub-standard products. Im talking in general an not swords.
Thats the trouble with our society at large. We are willing to buy crap made in poor under-developed countries where they people work in sweatshops or for low wages so we can buy more more more. We are addicted to getting more and not just having high quality itemsand making them last.
I can remember as a kid, there were repair shops for just about every houshold item you can think of. Take a toaster for instance. You could get those fixed back in the day. Now they are so cheap and cheaply made crap that after they have made their two hundredth piece of toast they die and you just buy another. Its a consumer society.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 2:18:30 GMT
I agree that many of the low to mid grade heck some so-called high end have QC problems but a few out of a large number is one thing when it happens all the time that seems to be a problem that needs to be fixed. I know that this happens to me as well but I belive it is what you do to rectify the issues at hand than blame everybody. No dont get me wrong I have had folks being instant samurai just add water and cut stuff they should damaging the blade and try to tell me it was my fault and give me a refund.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 19:18:21 GMT
That's a dangerous assumption. MANY wallhangers are sold as "functional". Many swords sold this way in the modern market aren't safe, but they should be. If you sell a product, it ought to be able to do what you say it will and do it safely. As an honest manufacturer, you need to spell that out explicitly, especially when a failure could lead to serious injury. Anything else is either fraud or criminal negligence.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 19:27:14 GMT
All these sub $300 sword makers have sets of processes, they just aren't doing it the same each and every time. They are ending up with "good" lots, and "bad" lots. Most of these makers are doing hand work on their blades. You can't standardize hand work like that. Machine forgings? Ok, probably. Hand forgings? Good luck. It is art not science. You have to use testing and hand fitting to take these variations into account so that the final product meets a nominal quality standard. And this happens even with modern equipment. If you use skilled labor in a small shop setting and lose a single lead craftsman, your whole product line suffers (this is what happened to Colt Handguns for quite a while). If you minimize this by switching to more automated industrial equipment, then you have to worry about the tooling wearing out. And that isn't even touching upon the iffy quality of supply materials across the developing world were most of this stuff is being made. Which means you have to test the steel coming in as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 19:46:47 GMT
But the real answer to "Why Do we Accept Sub standard stuff?" is that there are many standards.
Most people just want a wallhanger. So they don't pay much and they get a wallhanger.
The people on this board want cutting swords. We generally want a sword that won't take a set on a botched cut and will hold up to regular use (whatever that is). Good handling, looks, historical accuracy, and keeping a good edge are a definite bonus. But most of us don't have a lot of money so we want to achieve that standard with as little cost as possible.
This whole forum is dedicated to that problem: how cheap is too cheap. As such we can expect to have a lot of debate about where that line is. Nothing wrong with that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2008 0:01:21 GMT
.
I'll start the debate! -I think Strongblade, old Cas Iberia swords, most of VA's old line, Deepeeka, maybe Masahiro (I barely read the katana reviews though), Global gear western stuff, and Ritter steel are all junk.
Ritter steel may be well built,(?) but I lol at their "celtic norse sword" ?!? and some of the other "authentic" stuff which should be called "vaguely approximate" Same for VA's old line. Cas Iberia swords are again, cheap approximations of what their titles represent. And I'm not splitting hairs with historical accuracy here, I'm talking about deviations from the general body of practical sword design. I love the stories of snapped tangs, bent blades, and quality control nightmares. You get what you pay for.
Windlass, Gen 2, DSA, Cold steel, Hanwei, Cheness and Kris Cutlery seem a step above the junk, and where the body of decent swords in our price range are coming from. Even these brands all have their issues. I've seen a lot of crap get praise on this forum. no one wants to admit they got a piece of crap, and some people don't have the money to lay out for decent swords. I'll never chime in on a thread and say "omg don't buy that pice of crap, save up for a Gen 2" because that kind of thing is what many of us dislike about some of the other blade forums. I'll sure think it though ;D. Anyway the purpose of this site is to help people sift through all the propaganda and find what's good in the sword world right? I think it's done a pretty good job. Reviews you just have to take with a grain of salt (mine included). There is a ton of information here to help steer people in the right direction. I am all for letting people make their own decisions. As someone said above, deal with reputable sellers and you can't go wrong. If you get a bad sword, send it back!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 0:09:20 GMT
That's a dangerous assumption. MANY wallhangers are sold as "functional". Many swords sold this way in the modern market aren't safe, but they should be. If you sell a product, it ought to be able to do what you say it will and do it safely. As an honest manufacturer, you need to spell that out explicitly, especially when a failure could lead to serious injury. Anything else is either fraud or criminal negligence. That's why retailers use bullsemprini terms like "functional" and "battle-ready". It's "functional", but they never specify what function. Any wallhanger functions perfectly well doing what it's supposed to do: hang on a wall. It's function is decorative, but they won't tell you that. And "battle-ready" means nothing. A stick you pick up of the ground is "battle-ready". They don't specify that it will last long in battle or that it will perform in any type of sparring. It's just "ready". Even terms like "high-carbon steel" mean nothing. The material isn't specified, so it can be crap. And even if it is decent blade-steel, the heat-treatment might suck. These words are all about hype. "Stainless steel" or "surgical stainless" used to be what mass consumers wanted to hear. In the past few years, a TINY amount of knowledge has seeped into the population, which is why there's a lot more "high-carbon" wallhangers and crap on the market all of a sudden. The government can't control these terms, since they have no meaning. That's why more trustworthy sellers keep away from these terms, opting to use industry terms which actually mean something. Specifying the blade material alone(5160, 1055, 1060, etc) means more then any buzz-word.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 7:25:12 GMT
I just want to comment on the tsuka disassembly.
Even nihonto have been known to fail at times, these are swords that are made to the ultimate in quality control and yet they fail (usually the mekugi's fault). This doesn't mean its a crap sword though. These things happen, if your tsuka was to get wet, its likely to crack, your mekugi mught be loose etc... The best way to avert accidents like these is to inspect the sword properly before cutting with it. The same way you inspect a car before driving with it (you should!).
Lets say you're going deepsea diving. Are you going to check if there's enough oxygen in the tank before you take the plunge? Are you going to dive with someone else? Naturally! So why do it different when you're about to use a deadly weapon?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 14:24:28 GMT
Most of these makers are doing hand work on their blades. You can't standardize hand work like that. Sure you can, it's done all the time. Each process has a final standard which must me meet. If you use skilled labor in a small shop setting and lose a single lead craftsman, your whole product line suffers (this is what happened to Colt Handguns for quite a while). Loss of a skilled employee hurts production quotas, not quality. Quality is based on meeting set standards, not the skill of the employees. If the employee's work is incapable of meeting the quality standard, then it is the responsibility of company management to replace him to maintain the production of a quality product. Again, ......... it's the attitude of the company or management to see that a quality product is produced. Again I will say it, we are not talking about that occasional lemon or fluke. We are talking about repeated complaints about the same problem or groups of complaints occurring with the same sword maker. Complaints quickly discovered like scratches, dents, loose fittings, bent blades, poor sharpening, poorly constructed scabbards, etc. We are also not talking about one sword blade being hand hammered 342 times and the next only 281, that's variation but as long as each blade ends up correct to a given specification it's of no consequence to quality. Of course there is more internal process variation in a "hand made" item, but each process has a finish standard which must be meet. I can't believe a manufacturer just puts 5 guys on a line polishing blades and does not give them training and show them a standard, "here is what your end work on each blade must look like". Next step is to make SURE each man's final work IS meeting that requirement, and this is what is not apparently being done. We used to do "Cost of Poor Quality" analysis studies. Believe me even a small shop suffers greatly if they don't put together some sort of quality program and abide by it. For more years than I can count, the Colt Python was one of the finest handguns made, .............. and yes indeed they were all hand made (parts assembled & fine tuned). When you opened the box to your new Python there was no doubt what was inside. I have had family members in the gun business since the 60s and they cannot remember ever having a hand made new Python customer return with a problem. Colt had high quality expectation for that revolver and those quality requirements were meet by each and every smith assembling them. Then Colt made the decision to replace all these very skilled high dollar guys with better mechanization only requiring the parts be assembled without the "fine tuning"work of the gunsmiths . The Colt Python line went into the toilet. Oh they still functioned properly and meet Colt's quality requirement for functionality, but they lost that beautifully smooth action, fit, and finish. Colt's trademark revolver, .........died, ......... and Colt's reputation and market share took a major hit. Fact is there is no excuse for opening a box and finding loose fittings on your sword. There is no excuse for opening the box and finding a blade was never set into the guard properly before the pommel was tightened. There is no excuse for opening the box and finding scratches and scuff marks on you brand new sword blade. On and on and on, and we are also not talking about those rare occasions where shipping damage was the cause. We are talking about repeated quality concerns which continue to surface with some sword makers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 17:10:06 GMT
Not to derail the discussion but... I couldn't let this be...
The above was in reference to Paul's destructive test of Cheness O-Katana.
I suggest that before statements like that are made that the OP kindly handle or experience swords in the $2000+ Range. They are not delicate instruments. At the least, these swords are AS DURABLE as the TOUGHEST of swords in our market, in addition to having greater attention to aesthetic detail, better and more competent control over harmonics and balance issues, and in many cases historical qualities.
Having purchased some somewhat more expensive swords lately(nothing even close to $1000, but still above $300... All those little things that were off and didn't really bother me before are really starting to. I mean, I am and was not any stranger to high quality blades - I just saw a lot of our market as 'good enough'.
This is no longer the case - Sub $300 swords are great for what they are - but what they are is less than I deserve. And it's simple economics that I'm not gonna get what I deserve by paying $300 if what I deserve is $500+ swords.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 17:32:39 GMT
Sure you can, it's done all the time. Each process has a final standard which must me meet... Of course there is more internal process variation in a "hand made" item, but each process has a finish standard which must be meet. Except that the final standard for hand work is loose enough that your run into tolerancing problems down the line. You've got hand forged blades with wide tolerances being matched up with hilts that are cast or machined to close tolerances. So you get some that are too tight and might crack. You get others that are loose and rattle. What they should do is catch these items before they get to the final consumer and send them back through the line for rework. But some places don't. Why? Fact is there is no excuse for opening a box and finding loose fittings on your sword. Is there an excuse for these getting to the consumer? Yes. Cost. Plain and simple. It costs money to inspect the parts before assembly. It cost money to inspect completed swords before they're shipped. It costs money to rework the swords or components. And these are the first costs to be cut when you want to turn out a cheap product in volume. As the consumer, you need to realize this. There is no free lunch. If you buy the cheap sword, that money you save would have paid the manufacturer to do the necessary testing to make sure you're receiving a good product. Instead the manufacturer or dealer will probably slap a short warranty on it and rework the stuff that gets sent back by people like you. Essentially, you the buyer are now also the tester. This doesn't suck too much with scratched finishes or rattling handguards. They're at least easy to see and easy to get fixed (provided the customer support is decent). It sucks a lot when it is stuff you the consumer cannot easily discern like steel composition or heat treatment. As I've said, this forum and this site is essentially a guide to hedging your bets. A guide to how cheap is too cheap so you know when the QC is being neglected for other factors.
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