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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 9:45:30 GMT
I wonder why we seem to accept the crap we often get and think it is ok. We have these sword suppliers that seem to think that they are doing us a favour. We are low end so we should be grateful for their effort. Yeah, if the blade fails it seems to be our fault for investing so low. How about the companies at least make these things up to normal sword safety standards which many Dojo insist upon.
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Post by oos3thoo on Jul 19, 2008 9:52:29 GMT
If you want a better sword, invest in a higher priced sword. The swords are good for their price. Not to mention even higher end swords are pretty weak as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 10:12:25 GMT
For many people its the size of their wallet that indicates their idea of quality... But cost shouldn't be a factor, because you can find great swords for good prices if you know where to look.
I guess part of the reason that companies continue to rake in the jack without giving the people a break is that not enough consumers will stand up and be heard... And even if they did, who would listen?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 10:14:36 GMT
I do invest in higher priced swords, but I was empathizing with the guy that bought the rattling tsuka Cheness sword. Why make excuses for this sub standard stuff. I have handled a few of their offerings with no problems (well the geometry needs some attention), but this poor guy has had the typical brush off, just handle it Man. Let us make up stuff that will make it better. But hey , how is it when you spend your money then have to go through all these fixes to get your brand new purchase at least safe to use.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 10:24:22 GMT
Japanese swords are weak at all angles except the right angle, which is the Ha must be aligned to the plane of cutting and not change mid-cut, so no scooping with baseball swipes etc. The Japanese blade is perfect but often the swordsman is not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 11:07:35 GMT
People buy these weapons thinking they are light sabres that you can just swat away at the target willy nilly, often they have no training but think they know what they are doing. Granted sometimes there are a few lemons but seriously, no company has QC that doesn't let a single lemon through, no matter how good a company they are. The only way to prevent lemons is to hand make everything like jay fisher or someone of that nature and there are not enough smiths in all the world that could be brought together as one company to do that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 11:28:53 GMT
Sorry I know, but just have that feeling that to save your money and then that desperate yet resigned wait, only to have your purchase fall short of your somewhat over realist dreams can be a real downer. I have spent money well beyond the 300 bit and have experienced some real downsides. I admit the blades were good but fittings were poor, still it is a sad thing when you expect something of quality that you have paid for. Anyway us sword people seem to take all this in our stride and remain a rather happy bunch.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 15:17:12 GMT
I agree with you 100% Raven.
There is no reason why a guy should have to disassemble a brand new Katana, "to make sure it is safe to use".
That's nonsense. A little quality control before boxing these things up is not too much to ask and not that expensive when you consider the alternative which is development of a bad reputation.
Having something break from unseen things like poor grain structure or a crack is one thing, .... but loose parts right out of the box or a guard poorly cut like my Medieval Knight sword is just inexcusable.
Problem is, as someone said, as long as everyone keeps making excuses for the maker, there is no reason for him to take any steps to prevent these issues.
These things are actually pretty simple and I don't buy that, "Well I'm sure we only hear about the few bad ones, they make thousands of good ones". True, but we are not talking about single incidents. Some of these issues are becoming quite common, .... common enough that everyone now recommends you disassemble your brand new Katana to make sure it is safe to use.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 15:47:01 GMT
I have one sword I bought that has a little play in the handle. It can be disassembled and shimmed. Eh. Overall my experience has been good. No complaints here.
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Post by 293master293 on Jul 19, 2008 16:06:23 GMT
........is to hand make everything like jay fisher or someone of that nature.......... Or Brenno!
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 19, 2008 16:44:48 GMT
I think the pertinent word here is "we". If we don't accept it, "they" can't sell it to us. Caveat emptor, shop around.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 18:23:25 GMT
I say, quality control can slip for anyone and if some company sells quite a bunch of cheaper swords it's going to happen more often than with a company selling few, but for 1000$+ ( not to mention that the "cheaper" company won't spend THAT much on their quality control, take note it may cost them quite similiar money as the more "expensive" ones as they sell their products in much larger quantities so there's more checking to do ).
I remember reading about a guy on SFI who bought a sword from Zanshin for like 1200$ and the wrap was loose ( not sure if there weren't more problems ). Still, i think it's all fine if they offer a replacement. As i said, QC tend to slip every now and then.
About disassembling the sword to see if it's safe to use. Well, myself i'm hardly doing this ( on the other hand i'm not training anywhere right now so it's not really dangerous for anyone ), but i suppose one should check any sword. Something like cracked tsuka could either slip through QC or get damaged during shipping or... I've seen weirder things happen.
The only thing i'd agree with is when they tell you to "semprini off" ( in short ) when you tell them your brand new sword is damaged and it'd be cool if they did something about it. With all due respect, when something's damaged when you open the box they should be willing to either give you a refund or a replacement of the damaged part or entire sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 20:19:29 GMT
I just sent a sub-standard sword back to the dealer. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't accept crap. No one should. I got stuck with a lemon once because I took too long to break it and the vendor wasn't going to honor anything they didn't have to. Since then I have scrutinized everything as soon as I get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 21:11:55 GMT
Every sword made is a delicate operation, its often considered to be a simple process of "hammering a piece of steel and putting an edge on it"... this is far from it. The processes by which the Japanese sword is made are very technical, and all along the way there is countless possibilities for something to go wrong.
There are probably some manufacturers that pay less attention than others when doing quality control inspections. Often times, for every 50 or so swords made only one of them is inspected to see if its up to standards. But this of course depends on the manufacturers personal idea of what qualifies as being "acceptable" or what is not.
While mistakes in manufacturing do happen, it would seem that more and more consumers are filing fraudulent claims of low quality or defective swords. It seems everyone is happy when their sword is cutting perfectly, but as soon as it bends, breaks, or takes a set they "cry foul" to the manufacturer and say it was the swords fault and not their technique...
Its just a question of honesty,... i know that there are the occasional defects, but there are also those who know deep down inside that they screwed up and don't want it to happen on their dollar.
An example of this is ianflaer's kaze break... Now ian wasn't lying,... and to get solid proof of why the sword broke he had it inspected by a specialist. During this period of time there where countless remarks about the sword... "The sword was defective", "No sword should break like that", "There was faulty tempering and defects in the steel".... <were a few of the comments made.
Then when the results showed that it was actually the chipping of the blade on a steel wire that caused the structure fatal damage no one had anything to say???
Now ian set a good and honorable example of not jumping to conclusions before having solid proof... He didn't go messaging Paul Chen and saying "the sword you sold me was defective" because he didn't know what the actual cause of the break was. I have a lot of respect for him for doing things honestly and not trying to pass the blame onto someone else. We can all aspire to do this as well...
As for the original topic and mentioning of dojo quality swords, it really depends on the dojo... As many of you know i am a fan of Ronin Swords and for a good reason. The dojo of Obata Toshishiro Sensei in California has very strict regulations about the shinken and iaito that are allowed into the dojo. Sensei Obata personally inspects each sword and he's the one who says if its good enough to use in his school.
I have heard customer testimonials of some of the higher end company lines in the $500 - $1000 range being rejected for various reasons pertaining to quality. But the T-10 shinogi-zukuri's from Ronin Swords have yet to be denied... <and these are in the $400 range. Now i'm not trying to sell anything here, i'm just making an example of how price doesn't always dictate the quality of the product.
Sometimes when you spend $700 bucks on a sword you get a REALLY nice quality sword,... and other times you are just paying for a name. People would always rather have a "big bad" name brand sword than one that is under the radar. But i think this will change with more and more companies getting a reputation for delivering great products. One would think that the bigger the manufacturer, the better the quality should be... but it almost seems to be the total opposite. Where the smaller companies seem to pay more attention to the fine details and put alot of work into their products because with they're small client base they honestly can't afford to "piss anyone off"...
Just my thoughts on the subject, not disagreeing with anyone, just voicing my own opinions...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 21:13:05 GMT
A lemon is one thing, but seriously, this is a low-end-sword based forum. Quality just isn't going to be top-notch without paying for it.
When you pay $X for something, you're paying for:
>Materials. >Time. >Mark-up/profits.
The third is a huge part, since after all it's a business of some form you're purchasing from. But ANY skimping on the other two, as one MUST for swords in this forum's price range, quality is ALWAYS going to suffer somewhat. That's why this forum is here, to weed out the UBER-crap from the pieces that are atleast worth the charged price.
Lemons aside, of course. Serious flaws should always be sent back for replacement.
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Post by oos3thoo on Jul 19, 2008 22:20:10 GMT
I understand sometimes the quality seems to be even too low to pass as a lemon at times. The reason we accept it is because you cannot get better quality for sub 300$.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 23:13:38 GMT
If a sub-$300 sword is sold as a functional cutter, then there should never be a loose tsuka core, rattling fittings, or an ito that unravels in your hand the second you pull it out of the box. When a company sells a sword as functional, they must assume the customer is going to use the sword for cutting purposes. So, flaws like I mentioned above are absolutely unacceptable for any manufacturer. Unfortunately, somehow swords in this category are slipping out without being checked. The only way you can recieve a cutting sword with these flaws is if the last person to handle them before shipping simply ignores the problem and hopes the customer doesn't complain about it, since it is just a $100-$300 sword. The exception to this is the cracked tsuka core problem. Sometimes swords are made in great quantities and then stored. If the wood of the tsuka core isn't totally cured, it could split while in storage. But still, the manufacturer must be willing to step up and repair/replace any part of their product that is truly defective. This is what seperates good companies from bad companies. Willingness to listen to the customer, make improvements to the product, and quickly resolve any and all problems with the product. If a company doesn't do this, their business will eventually suffer as the market expands and becomes more competitive. And the market is becoming more and more competitive everyday. That's good news for us, the customer. To say that good quality swords are simply not available in the sub $300 range just isn't true. Take a look at cheness. I don't know about western styled swords, but in japanese styled swords, cheness is deffinately earning my respect. We all saw what Paul did to that steel drum with the cheness O-katana, and that's a sub $300 sword. That's a good example of quality swords in this range standing up to use and abuse that would destroy even your $2,000- ?!?! range swords. It all comes down to how far the maker is willing to go to get your business, and how willing you are to part with your hard earned money. There are companies out there right now who are hoping you'll buy their swords based just on their respective name brand. They think they can survive by tossing you the crumbs off the table unless you're willing to cough up a grand or more. Until they improve the quality of their lower range of swords, don't buy them. Nothing stings a company more than when a customers says, " I don't think I'm going to go with your line this time. Perhaps this other company can offer me something better for the same price ?" This sends the message loud and clear. Also, most of your manufacturers make most of their money from the sub $300 market area, and only sell a handfull of $1000 and up swords comparatively. So, the best thing we consumers can do is demand higher quality and attention to functionality in realistic terms. Write E-mails and keep in contact with your suppliers. Let them know what you think of their product in a polite and respectful way. Be honest and sicere in your communications, and good things will come from it. A sword manufacturer would have to be crazy not to want to hear from their customers in today's agressive buyer's market. Sorry for ranting, folks. Just have a strong opinion on these things.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2008 23:49:33 GMT
These swords are hand made, so they all have subtle differences in dimension but all need to be within a specific range. Because of these slight differences the tsuka cores and saya need to have a certain amount of play in them to assure that they will fit no matter what the size of geometry difference is...
Then they take the sword after polishing and go over to a big drum full of pre-wrapped tsuka and find one that sort of fits. If it doesn't fit perfectly they pound it on anyway which causes most of all the cracking we see in tsuka today. They do the same thing with the saya, theres a big drum full of pre-made and lacquered saya and they try a few of them until they find a fit... If you ever get a saya thats "sloppy" and allows the blade to move or fall out when seated this is why.
Its like putting together a puzzle, only instead of finding the "right piece" they jam anything in there. A properly fitted tsuka core should never crack under normal circumstances. Unfortunately the labor cost for custom fitting each individual sword would skyrocket and then we would have to pay out the nose for that level of quality.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2008 0:06:41 GMT
Good point, Jim. I was just going to ask if there are any manufacturers using CNC machines to cut exact stocks, but then remembered that the sword's shape will change during yaki-ire (heat treatment). (sigh) Guess we'll just have to deal with the problem ourselves for the most part. Although, that's good news for the folks in the customization and restoration business. Still bad news for the consumer, though.
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Post by admin on Jul 20, 2008 3:36:40 GMT
Probably the only way to obtain perfection would be to CNC lathe the blade, heat treat it at something like the Windlass facility, and then attach a slab tang like with the Angus Trim Tactical line.
This would keep the cost under US$300, but of course, it wouldn't look anything like a traditional sword.
With Katana, rhe old Hanwei PK with the epoxied tsuka is another option. Quite a few of the sub US$100 Katana do this...
Otherwise, what it boils down to is a question of either buying well above the US$300 price point (and even this is no guarantee of perfection) or being willing to either do a little after market modifications and/or buy from a vendor who will deal with any issues that arise - including replacing a sword or offering a refund if it doesn't meet your expectations.
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