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Post by brothersteel on Apr 19, 2019 15:42:50 GMT
I've been planning out my personal weapons for a long time, and being raised on classic swashbuckler movies, now tempered with study into the historical realities of swordsmanship, I'm trying to decide on the right weapon. Ideally, I'm looking for a solid thrusting weapon, with enough to still give good draw cuts. I'm focusing on rapiers, but I've got one smallsword-esque weapon in the running. Any input on which has better steel, hilt integrity, and durability, for a size large glove would greatly help!
- Windlass 1840 Ames NCO Sword (leather scabbard) - Kingston Arms Renaissance Side Sword - Cold Steel Cavalier Rapier - Del Tin Early 16th Century Italian Rapier (haven't found any reviews, though the Arms & Armor Serenissima Rapier seems a close match)
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 19, 2019 17:44:47 GMT
Well, in the sword world you often have generally a rule of "more money more quality", and I think the del tin would be the best of the ones you've presented.
The windlass is nice but is a military side arm and thus less suited to the niceties of dueling trends (Imagine a government issue rifle vs the plinker for competition).
If I were to duel I would choose a long rapier and dagger set (43inch blade on the rapier and 17 inch on the dagger).
If I were to use one as an everyday carry I would choose the KA sidesword for a more versatile and easier to carry sword. But still I think the rapier and dagger as the queen of the sword edc and duellist weapon.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 19, 2019 17:48:12 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 19, 2019 17:50:45 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 19, 2019 17:52:33 GMT
Also sorry I'm posting so many times but I love this topic of a modern duel - best budget pick in your list - cold steel. Won't be the best dynamically or quality wise (and indeed how a sword feels is a major price point imo) but they have a well deserved reputation for quality budget user friendly swords.
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Post by brothersteel on Apr 19, 2019 18:20:11 GMT
Also sorry I'm posting so many times but I love this topic of a modern duel - best budget pick in your list - cold steel. Won't be the best dynamically or quality wise (and indeed how a sword feels is a major price point imo) but they have a well deserved reputation for quality budget user friendly swords. I appreciate the enthusiasm in the response. No problem at all! I can see your point about the swept hilt design. I like the pappenheim-hilt, myself, though the Cold Steel Cavalier seems more attractive, given the critiques thus far. Plus it's on the higher end of the prices of the CS weapons I have on my list (the other four being the Hand and a Half, Italian Dagger, War Hammer, and Rifleman's Knife), so it's more promising, given the price=quality ratio. I'm more intent on a rapier blade of nearly 37", feeling the 41" blade a bit longer than I'd like, but what's the difference, in your mind?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 19, 2019 18:43:10 GMT
Also sorry I'm posting so many times but I love this topic of a modern duel - best budget pick in your list - cold steel. Won't be the best dynamically or quality wise (and indeed how a sword feels is a major price point imo) but they have a well deserved reputation for quality budget user friendly swords. I appreciate the enthusiasm in the response. No problem at all! I can see your point about the swept hilt design. I like the pappenheim-hilt, myself, though the Cold Steel Cavalier seems more attractive, given the critiques thus far. Plus it's on the higher end of the prices of the CS weapons I have on my list (the other four being the Hand and a Half, Italian Dagger, War Hammer, and Rifleman's Knife), so it's more promising, given the price=quality ratio. I'm more intent on a rapier blade of nearly 37", feeling the 41" blade a bit longer than I'd like, but what's the difference, in your mind? the difference in my mind comes to how able you are to handle weight and the extra length. A shorter weapon will have more bind presence, but a longer sword will force people to come into your measure to have a chance at striking you. I prefer a long blade on a rapier to maximise the advantage of a thrust. As an anecdote a few weeks ago I was sparring sabre vs rapier, switching sword styles between bouts with my friend. The rapiers have narrow 42.5 blades, and the longer of the sabres with only a 33.5 inch blade. I think my friends sabre has a 32" blade but may be mistaken. In any case, I or my friend would routinely get gutted by each other's rapiers. The approx 10inches of blade difference allowed the rapierist to stop thrust the sabreur while moving back. That said, if you don't plan on using a dagger (And if you are using a thrusting weapon or plan to go against them I don't see why not, actually I don't see why not anyways, I'm working currently on a dirk for fencing usage with my sabre) than I would say commit to a cut and thrust style like the sidesword. The advantage of a rapier is in the ability to have excellent point control with a massively long blade. Add a dagger and for a dueling set you have no better option imo. Here's one of my recent competitions - I am the fencer with the striped mask ala ww1 dazzle camo. Hard to see but that dagger basically allows the rapier to act like a hypodermic needle. You brush aside the patients hand (by parrying their rapier blade) And inject them with the needle (by having your own rapier ready to riposte as soon as you feel contact on your dagger or your setup has been completed). The last bout actually shows reach quite well - I got out on a thrust to the inner elbow (had I known they called his cut as no confidence I would have only defended out of measure) and in free sparring a lot of his gained thrusts seemed to be from a superior reach. Not knocking him as a fencer just pointing out that reach is a great advantage.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 19, 2019 18:44:20 GMT
You do have suitable longer knives, not as ling as I would prefer for a rapier and dagger set but will function well for a make - do parrying dagger for a duellist set.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 19, 2019 19:07:52 GMT
The CS Cavalier and the (Swept Hilt - Edit: I meant the Ribbed Shell, sorry) are different weapons for different fighting styles. Trying to visualize it: Archie in Rob Roy = transitional rapier or degen (in German) Alatriste or Lester's Musketeer movies = classic rapier.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 19, 2019 19:32:17 GMT
I lost my sparring partner so am a bit handicapped on the experience but will throw this out there to think on. From what I’ve observed, and I have the same M1840 NCO sword that you are considering as does Jordan: I find it less fatiguing than my rapier, more accurate, and faster. I can put the point in a one inch circle far more frequently than with the rapier. From the accounts of real sword fights of the past that I’ve studied involving thrusting it was important to score on critical spots and not to target the body as a whole. The M1840 also cuts better, for whatever that’s worth, and makes a larger hole. On the other hand a rapier is better for keeping your opponent at distance if you do your part. Or perhaps I need a different rapier. Hehe
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Post by brothersteel on Apr 19, 2019 21:18:52 GMT
The CS Cavalier and the Swept Hilt are different weapons for different fighting styles. Trying to visualize it: Archie in Rob Roy = transitional rapier or degen (in German) Alatriste or Lester's Musketeer movies = classic rapier. Be fair, all are marvelous swashbuckler movies, though I'm more partial to the Rob Roy and Lester's Musketeers (though I was surprised by how much I liked the 3rd entry into the series), so the Cavalier is winning out so far. Plus it's in the transitional phase between the classic rapier and how popular the smallsword was becoming.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 19, 2019 21:36:38 GMT
In Germany that's the classic sword called "Degen" , rather a long spadroon than a smallsword or rapier. A heavy rapier or a smallsword are considered as uncommon types of a degen. I call this a degenerated classificaton!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 19, 2019 22:15:57 GMT
Just remembered that D. Kelly had reviewed the CS a while back, and that it wasn't quoted as nimble. Actually, brothersteel there is a rapier and dagger set in an antique shop in a city adjacent to mine - it is a bone handled rapier and dagger, if you'd like I can investigate them and act as a surrogate, they were priced in the 200s iirc. Any one more person getting into rapier is a plus for me
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Post by brothersteel on Apr 19, 2019 22:37:21 GMT
Just remembered that D. Kelly had reviewed the CS a while back, and that it wasn't quoted as nimble. Actually, brothersteel there is a rapier and dagger set in an antique shop in a city adjacent to mine - it is a bone handled rapier and dagger, if you'd like I can investigate them and act as a surrogate, they were priced in the 200s iirc. Any one more person getting into rapier is a plus for me Firstly, I'm humbled by the offer! Would you look? I'm a little intrigued to see what they're offering. And I remember reading the review on the CS Ribbed Shell Rapier. Even beforehand, it looked a bit too heavy for the more nimble movement one expects.
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Post by brothersteel on Apr 19, 2019 23:26:58 GMT
I appreciate the enthusiasm in the response. No problem at all! I can see your point about the swept hilt design. I like the pappenheim-hilt, myself, though the Cold Steel Cavalier seems more attractive, given the critiques thus far. Plus it's on the higher end of the prices of the CS weapons I have on my list (the other four being the Hand and a Half, Italian Dagger, War Hammer, and Rifleman's Knife), so it's more promising, given the price=quality ratio. I'm more intent on a rapier blade of nearly 37", feeling the 41" blade a bit longer than I'd like, but what's the difference, in your mind? the difference in my mind comes to how able you are to handle weight and the extra length. A shorter weapon will have more bind presence, but a longer sword will force people to come into your measure to have a chance at striking you. I prefer a long blade on a rapier to maximise the advantage of a thrust. As an anecdote a few weeks ago I was sparring sabre vs rapier, switching sword styles between bouts with my friend. The rapiers have narrow 42.5 blades, and the longer of the sabres with only a 33.5 inch blade. I think my friends sabre has a 32" blade but may be mistaken. In any case, I or my friend would routinely get gutted by each other's rapiers. The approx 10inches of blade difference allowed the rapierist to stop thrust the sabreur while moving back. That said, if you don't plan on using a dagger (And if you are using a thrusting weapon or plan to go against them I don't see why not, actually I don't see why not anyways, I'm working currently on a dirk for fencing usage with my sabre) than I would say commit to a cut and thrust style like the sidesword. The advantage of a rapier is in the ability to have excellent point control with a massively long blade. Add a dagger and for a dueling set you have no better option imo. Here's one of my recent competitions - I am the fencer with the striped mask ala ww1 dazzle camo. Hard to see but that dagger basically allows the rapier to act like a hypodermic needle. You brush aside the patients hand (by parrying their rapier blade) And inject them with the needle (by having your own rapier ready to riposte as soon as you feel contact on your dagger or your setup has been completed). The last bout actually shows reach quite well - I got out on a thrust to the inner elbow (had I known they called his cut as no confidence I would have only defended out of measure) and in free sparring a lot of his gained thrusts seemed to be from a superior reach. Not knocking him as a fencer just pointing out that reach is a great advantage. The bouts were very impressive! Going through this thread's responses, I was also reminded of the Darkwood transitional rapier, which is looking very promising alongside the others. Any thoughts? So far, the Ames is beginning to trail behind the others, and I'm feeling more at home in this community!
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Post by zabazagobo on Apr 19, 2019 23:38:21 GMT
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Post by zabazagobo on Apr 19, 2019 23:45:08 GMT
You do have suitable longer knives, not as ling as I would prefer for a rapier and dagger set but will function well for a make - do parrying dagger for a duellist set. I love the way you poke at the opponent to keep them on edge, lead them to engage, maintain a forward orientation with the main guache and connect. Especially when your opponents get frustrated and whiff their cuts. Very nice tactics!
I'm a big fan of keeping the main gauche forward, sometimes equal or even beyond the rapier tip, so it's fun to see strategies that echo what I practice. Great footage, thanks for sharing.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 20, 2019 0:07:23 GMT
Just remembered that D. Kelly had reviewed the CS a while back, and that it wasn't quoted as nimble. Actually, brothersteel there is a rapier and dagger set in an antique shop in a city adjacent to mine - it is a bone handled rapier and dagger, if you'd like I can investigate them and act as a surrogate, they were priced in the 200s iirc. Any one more person getting into rapier is a plus for me Firstly, I'm humbled by the offer! Would you look? I'm a little intrigued to see what they're offering. And I remember reading the review on the CS Ribbed Shell Rapier. Even beforehand, it looked a bit too heavy for the more nimble movement one expects. Of course! I'll go by when I get an opportunity, they may be closed today. Iirc It's one of the hanwei or windlass models. Also thanks! Rapier and dagger fencing has quick becoming something I'm passionate about. zabazagoboThanks! But I have to give all the credit to my teacher, in under a year under his heading I've progressed farther than I ever had in the 2 years I did before.
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Post by howler on Apr 20, 2019 0:59:19 GMT
Just remembered that D. Kelly had reviewed the CS a while back, and that it wasn't quoted as nimble. Actually, brothersteel there is a rapier and dagger set in an antique shop in a city adjacent to mine - it is a bone handled rapier and dagger, if you'd like I can investigate them and act as a surrogate, they were priced in the 200s iirc. Any one more person getting into rapier is a plus for me Firstly, I'm humbled by the offer! Would you look? I'm a little intrigued to see what they're offering. And I remember reading the review on the CS Ribbed Shell Rapier. Even beforehand, it looked a bit too heavy for the more nimble movement one expects. With the CS Ribbed Shell Rapier you would probably not be cutting with or engaging in quick, nimble movements as it is a somewhat forward weighted, nearly 3lb. hunk of steel. You can do push & pull cuts with it, but you would really just concentrate on single time (I believe that is what they call it) thrusts at distance with an offhand dagger (I think a critical component with this particular sword).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 20, 2019 3:08:45 GMT
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