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Post by nordmann on Mar 15, 2019 8:51:47 GMT
But I'm picky.
So the basic premise is I want a sword to learn the basics of "backsword/sabre" I sadly have no HEMA club nearby, and even the closest,(as in the entire country) doesn't do 18th/19th-century military sword.
Now I could do it really easy, by just buying a decent HEMA training sabre or straight sword. BUT here comes the picky part. At least 60% of my wanting to do this, is the connection to history.
So I want a sword that actually is part of the history I like, my main periods of interest are Great Northern War/Spanish Succession, Seven Years War, and Napoleonic period.
Given I want to do some actual training with them, it would be nice if the swords behaved somewhat like the real thing(something that isn't easy) I have looked at actual antiques, but except maybe for some 1796 LC sabres, they are all out of my price range. (£500-1000) I've kinda given up on Great Northen War Swords, the Swedish Värjas from the period seem to have a finger rings, which I assume means you can't use sabre/backsword techniques with it(can't do the basic moulinettes?)
I prefer the visuals of a straight backswords/pallasch. but there doesn't seem to be even half decent copies of these types swords(like the universal swords 1796 HC) From googling, and youtubing, I've seen some rumours that the latest models of Cold Steel's 1796 LC isn't horrible.
But if anyone with great knowledge and wisdom can help me, it would be much appreciated. PS. I apologise for any things I've misunderstood about swords and techniques.
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Post by MOK on Mar 15, 2019 18:23:59 GMT
For solo learning, I think you'd be better off with a blunt waster than a "live" sword. Have a look at Black Fencer, for instance; both their synthetic and steel wasters are quite nice and handle very much like actual historical swords. PS. Actually, no, finger and thumb rings don't stop you from doing moulinettes. Hilts with those features are hardly ever set up for the kind of grip with the thumb extended along the back of the grip that's referred to as the "saber grip" in modern times, but that was more of a Victorian thing and quite uncommon on Napoleonic sabers... and in any case it isn't at all required for moulinettes and other such flowing rotations, anyway. Mostly what it does is just give you a little more reach and change your focus towards point control and wrist cuts rather than cuts from the elbow and shoulder.
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Post by nordmann on Mar 15, 2019 18:40:04 GMT
For solo learning, I think you'd be better off with a blunt waster than a "live" sword. Have a look at Black Fencer, for instance; both their synthetic and steel wasters are quite nice and handle very much like actual historical swords. PS. Actually, no, finger and thumb rings don't stop you from doing moulinettes. Hilts with those features are hardly ever set up for the kind of grip with the thumb extended along the back of the grip that's referred to as the "saber grip" in modern times, but that was more of a Victorian thing and quite uncommon on Napoleonic sabers... and in any case it isn't at all required for moulinettes and other such flowing rotations, anyway. Mostly what it does is just give you a little more reach and change your focus towards point control and wrist cuts rather than cuts from the elbow and shoulder. Thanks for every good information. That nylon 1796 HC waster looks very interesting. And thanks for the info on the finger ring. I might sometime in the future get that universal swords copy of the swedish 1685 värja just because of history aspect of it.(I did a little research on it and I think I read it on this forum) that those particular swords were somewhat better than other universal swords. As they were originally made for a swedish customer.
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Post by MOK on Mar 16, 2019 7:51:58 GMT
The 1796 HC is interesting, but it's also a big brute of a sword, made for giving point and smashing cuts from horseback as you ride by, and as such somewhat cumbersome for actual fencing on foot. If you go for it you might also want a more user-friendly weapon for contrast and a reminder of what kind of weapon the fencing systems were actually designed for; the 1796 LC saber (also adopted by lots of infantry, against regulations) would be one good choice. And if you want a complete set of period military swords, get a spadroon, too! (Yeah... this is very much like potato chips. You think you'll have just one, and the next thing you know you've devoured the whole bag...) Remember, Black Fencer will happily customize their wasters to your specs, so if there's something you'd like changed (like the length or point shape on the HC, perhaps), let them know.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 16, 2019 8:08:07 GMT
Are you in Europe or the U.S.? When I drill I like to use swords heavier than my sparring swords.
Empire Costume makes a very good French 1802 light cavalry sabre replica.
The cold steel will probably do fine for what you want it for, but you could also trawl eBay for a cheaper original. Auction houses run fairly cheap as well sometimes.
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Post by nordmann on Mar 16, 2019 8:39:41 GMT
The 1796 HC is interesting, but it's also a big brute of a sword, made for giving point and smashing cuts from horseback as you ride by, and as such somewhat cumbersome for actual fencing on foot. If you go for it you might also want a more user-friendly weapon for contrast and a reminder of what kind of weapon the fencing systems were actually designed for; the 1796 LC saber (also adopted by lots of infantry, against regulations) would be one good choice. And if you want a complete set of period military swords, get a spadroon, too! (Yeah... this is very much like potato chips. You think you'll have just one, and the next thing you know you've devoured the whole bag...) Remember, Black Fencer will happily customize their wasters to your specs, so if there's something you'd like changed (like the length or point shape on the HC, perhaps), let them know. Oh I know the potato chip effect. Being a wargamer with 2000 miniatures, and having 12 Siberian Huskies. I'm very prone to the potato chip effect. Currently the only standard option for the 1796 HC is "Symmetrical" tip. Is that the field modification version with a more pointed point?
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Post by nordmann on Mar 16, 2019 8:40:48 GMT
Are you in Europe or the U.S.? When I drill I like to use swords heavier than my sparring swords. Empire Costume makes a very good French 1802 light cavalry sabre replica. The cold steel will probably do fine for what you want it for, but you could also trawl eBay for a cheaper original. Auction houses run fairly cheap as well sometimes. I'm in Europe. I'll keep an eye out for antiques here and there.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 16, 2019 8:54:37 GMT
The 1796 HC is interesting, but it's also a big brute of a sword, made for giving point and smashing cuts from horseback as you ride by, and as such somewhat cumbersome for actual fencing on foot. But no more of a brute than many of its late 19th century successors, and lighter than most of them (and could be over 300g lighter than its famously unwieldy 1788 predecessor). The P1890 is 3oz heavier by the specs, and mine is heavier than spec but still well-balanced and usable on foot (though heavier than I'd prefer). The Black Fencer 1796HC waster is a bit over 100g lighter than its steel brethren, and balanced in a little closer. Should be a good training sword.
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Post by MOK on Mar 16, 2019 18:56:50 GMT
Currently the only standard option for the 1796 HC is "Symmetrical" tip. Is that the field modification version with a more pointed point? Yeah, that would be based on the very popular shortened and spear-pointed modification. (Their photos also show one with a single-edged point, based on another common style; the standard regulation pattern was a little longer and had a fairly obtuse "hatchet" point.) That said, if you want something Black Fencer doesn't explicitly offer as a default option, all you need to do is specify it when you make the order. They're quite accommodating. But no more of a brute than many of its late 19th century successors, and lighter than most of them (and could be over 300g lighter than its famously unwieldy 1788 predecessor). The P1890 is 3oz heavier by the specs, and mine is heavier than spec but still well-balanced and usable on foot (though heavier than I'd prefer). And then there are some French cuirassier swords that really do almost literally feel like pointed crowbars... because they're designed only for giving point in a charge and nothing else. Indeed, just because it's not strictly optimal doesn't mean it won't work. You're right, it seems their standard model is based on the aforementioned modifications. Actually looking at the stats again, it shouldn't be at all far from many infantry back/broadswords.
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Post by nordmann on Mar 16, 2019 19:20:30 GMT
Thanks for the help guys. I've more or less settled on the 1796 HC washer. If I stick with and. I can buy metal copies or save up for a decent quality antique later on. If I want a chopper to do cutting with the cold steel 1796 LC seems decent.
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Post by SandStormZA on Mar 18, 2019 4:22:23 GMT
I fully agree with others about buying Black Fencer wasters. I use mine every day, and I've heard they are acceptably close to originals in handling. That's according to YouTube channels like Academy of Historical Fencing.
The other big advantage is the BF wasters are really affordable, so why not buy 2 or 3 at once for variety?
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