Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 3, 2019 4:46:35 GMT
How well does a fencing mask protect a person's head? I've seen it used for nearly everything. How would thye do against impact or cuts?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2019 5:18:53 GMT
I fenced foil and saber. The mask was adequate against those, but I wouldn't trust it against a blade with any weight. The back of the head is mostly unprotected, too.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 3, 2019 6:19:09 GMT
I fenced foil and saber. The mask was adequate against those, but I wouldn't trust it against a blade with any weight. The back of the head is mostly unprotected, too. . Would you say that it is mostly cut resistant?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 3, 2019 6:37:34 GMT
I think they would be pretty good for defense. A sharp point *might* force apart the mesh, but I can't imagine cuts getting through the more hardier hema stuff.
I use the standard hema mask in sparring. It hasn't taken a dent in any kind of sparring, which has included sabre cuts hard enough to make my ears rings.
The older classical fencing masks on the other hand, are much weaker and you can beat them in. I beat one in with a L. Driggers tomahawk.
I would recommend a back of head protector. I use the red Dragon overlay with the dorky red stripe.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 3, 2019 7:25:12 GMT
I think they would be pretty good for defense. A sharp point *might* force apart the mesh, but I can't imagine cuts getting through the more hardier hema stuff. I use the standard hema mask in sparring. It hasn't taken a dent in any kind of sparring, which has included sabre cuts hard enough to make my ears rings. The older classical fencing masks on the other hand, are much weaker and you can beat them in. I beat one in with a L. Driggers tomahawk. I would recommend a back of head protector. I use the red Dragon overlay with the dorky red stripe. Where is a good source of hema masks? I feel I might want to add one to my gear
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 3, 2019 7:45:55 GMT
I think they would be pretty good for defense. A sharp point *might* force apart the mesh, but I can't imagine cuts getting through the more hardier hema stuff. I use the standard hema mask in sparring. It hasn't taken a dent in any kind of sparring, which has included sabre cuts hard enough to make my ears rings. The older classical fencing masks on the other hand, are much weaker and you can beat them in. I beat one in with a L. Driggers tomahawk. I would recommend a back of head protector. I use the red Dragon overlay with the dorky red stripe. Where is a good source of hema masks? I feel I might want to add one to my gear Woodenswords.com, kultofathena.com, absolute fencing. Absolute fencing basic hema mask is the one I use.
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Post by MOK on Mar 3, 2019 10:43:01 GMT
Depends on the mask! Modern ones are rated in terms of how many newtons of applied force the mesh can withstand, typically varying from around 300N to around 1500N and more; I think the usual recommendation for HEMA purposes is at least 500N, and there's no real downside to making it stronger so why the hell would you not, although around the point where penetrating the mesh takes more force than breaking your neck the returns obviously begin to diminish. There's also variation in how well different masks protect the sides and back of your head, and your throat and neck - some are more enclosing than others, some have larger and/or better designed gorgets, some have add-ons for more comprehensive protection, etc. This can come at the expense of comfort and ergonomics, so at the extreme ends there are some fairly meaningful compromises to be made one way or the other, but also several reasonable flavors in the middle of the road. PS. The force delivered by a thrust is more locally concentrated than that from a cut, so if a mask can withstand thrusts up to e.g. 1000N, it will do even better against edge blows. No worries in that regard. But keep in mind that a sufficiently forceful blow, whether with the point or the edge, can still cause concussion and spinal injuries even without penetrating the mask...
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 3, 2019 11:51:29 GMT
Modern ones are rated in terms of how many newtons of applied force the mesh can withstand, typically varying from around 300N to around 1500N and more; If a rating in newtons is quoted, that's usually for the bib (which, in foil/epee/sabre fencing, needs to be able to stop a broken blade from penetrating, on unlucky occasion). More on mask ratings: www.keithfarrell.net/blog/2017/09/difference-350n-fencing-mask-1600n-fencing-mask/
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Post by MOK on Mar 3, 2019 16:07:12 GMT
I stand corrected!
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 3, 2019 20:19:18 GMT
Thanks a ton for the information. Sounds like I need to get me one of this high rated bib masks with protection on the top of the head.
Now, another question. What mask do you guys recommend that balances both high protection with low cost?
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 3, 2019 20:52:28 GMT
Just to be clear, what are you using it for? What kinds of wasters are you planning on it coming into contact with?
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 3, 2019 21:10:24 GMT
I mostly just want a modern face armour to be used in hypothetical situations like SHTF.
But I also will be using it for hema practice when I am able to. It seems the groups around here only practice on summer
Would prefer it to be able to handle steel trainers but also synthetic wasters
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 3, 2019 21:14:10 GMT
Oh well if you want a mask that would be helpful in a defense situation, I cant advise a fencing mask at all. The metal mesh is designed to hold up against a flexible steel rod being slammed into it, but if you took something like a baseball bat to it, you could crush it with minimal effort. I can't recommend you try and use a fencing mask for actual defense situations. I guess you could use a real kevlar helmet to protect yourself in fencing, but its probably gonna be heavier, more uncomfortable, and restrict your vision more if its sturdy enough to stand up to real weapons.
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Post by MOK on Mar 3, 2019 21:25:46 GMT
Ah, well, for that kind of use...
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 3, 2019 22:21:32 GMT
Oh well if you want a mask that would be helpful in a defense situation, I cant advise a fencing mask at all. The metal mesh is designed to hold up against a flexible steel rod being slammed into it, but if you took something like a baseball bat to it, you could crush it with minimal effort. I can't recommend you try and use a fencing mask for actual defense situations. I guess you could use a real kevlar helmet to protect yourself in fencing, but its probably gonna be heavier, more uncomfortable, and restrict your vision more if its sturdy enough to stand up to real weapons. I figured against knives, machetes and such might do. Against bat's, I dunno how useful being alive would be if I was hit in the head with a bat. Concussion and even just being knocked over, would be hard to work with while being attacked by an opponent. Plus the weight isn't ideal I've considered a hidden helmet under the fencing mask as well. I mostly just don't want a knife stabbed into my sinuses or throat, or something else disfiguring, infection causing, and/or gruesome. I figure they may be able to get a few face pokes or slashes more easily than a full on swing of a bat, which I'm guessing might be likely to do enough damage to land me in a position where they have a massive upper hand anyway. So against that the only thing I think I could do is dodge. *edit: just adding that I edited this a few times in case you only seen the earlier edits. I just realized I might only like light armour. I never seen the point in stopping a powerful bullet from piercing when its impact can kill you anyway
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 3, 2019 22:56:16 GMT
I can't in good faith recommend a fencing mask for any situation where your life is on the line. COULD it protect you in a pinch? Sure. It it MEANT to do that? No. I don't think you should hedge if you ever actually think it would come up in those contexts.
Granted, I doubt thats the case and it probably never would come up, I just feel obligated to point out when a self defense thing is a bad idea, like wanting to use sword against a gunman.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 3, 2019 23:10:28 GMT
I can't in good faith recommend a fencing mask for any situation where your life is on the line. COULD it protect you in a pinch? Sure. It it MEANT to do that? No. I don't think you should hedge if you ever actually think it would come up in those contexts. Granted, I doubt thats the case and it probably never would come up, I just feel obligated to point out when a self defense thing is a bad idea, like wanting to use sword against a gunman. Fair enough. I think I been applying HEMA and such too strongly towards my over all SHTF project. I feel over confidence might be a side effect of HEMA. It starts making so much sense you forget it isn't an all use system I also have yet to take my SHTF project beyond just a fantasy concept. My equipment weighs way too much
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 4, 2019 0:06:57 GMT
I suppose if it stands up to light cuts and thrusts it suits my purpose of it. There is a concept of a kit I am building. A duelling kit (sparring) . Light and mildly protective. Can be used with light sharp sparring maybe?
What mask would you recommend?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2019 0:11:09 GMT
For a SHTF scenario, it may be interesting to pair a fencing mask with a mil surplus steel helmet. You could even wire some small steel plates to the mesh and bib of the mask portion for additional protection.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 4, 2019 0:14:18 GMT
For a SHTF scenario, it may be interesting to pair a fencing mask with a mil surplus steel helmet. You could even wire some small steel plates to the mesh and bib of the mask portion for additional protection. That's actually really close to what I was wanting to do haha. Add some Lamellar
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