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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 13, 2019 0:54:37 GMT
Lately as I've been practicing rapier I've become very fond of manipulating the ricasso with my off-hand for various maneuvers where the extra strength and balance aids the strategy. The thought dawned on me that I am completely uneducated with regards to whether there is a style of jian which posseses a ricasso. Was a ricasso evident on jian, and are there written strategies on its use? Further, does are there jian with a ricasso being sold these days? I ask as finding a merry middleground between my two favorite types of straight sword would make me a rather happy swordsman.
Thanks in advance for any and all information folks
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 0:56:15 GMT
I have a limited understanding of the jian, but I believe it is typically designed as a cut and thrust blade. Perhaps the ricasso was meant to reinforce the blade, to give it more strength. I have seen ricassos on the large two handed jians.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 13, 2019 1:05:55 GMT
Two handed jian are really cool weapons, especially with a pronounced ricasso, like this example by Dragon King: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SD13790&name=Dragon+King+%2D+Taotie+Jian+%2D+Two+Handed+SwordWhat's really fun about this design is how agile it is given the length to weight ratio, would really like to give it a whirl someday. Seeing as how it's easily full pound lighter than a longsword of comparable length, it'd be a lot of fun to test out. Now the question emerges...were ricasso implemented on jian of the single handed variety? I can't recall seeing any |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 1:08:11 GMT
I have wanted that jian by Dragon King forever! Jian blades are rather narrow, aren't they? I think the thick diamond cross section helps strengthen the blade in the thrust. In a two handed version of that size, I think the ricasso is essential. I am wondering if the ricasso was gripped rather like the giant European versions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 1:10:05 GMT
That jian by Dragon King looks like a huge rondel dagger blade. Imagine being on the receiving end of that thrust. Ouch.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 13, 2019 1:19:21 GMT
Using Oakeshott types, compared to a type 13 or 18, more narrow, compared to a 15a or a rapier, they're appreciably wider. It's a pretty good style for an effective cut that isn't too shabby at thrusts either. I'm not entirely sure how representative my cold steel jian is, but it's an amazing blade at everything it does. Just needs a ricasso
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 13, 2019 1:19:49 GMT
That jian by Dragon King looks like a huge rondel dagger blade. Imagine being on the receiving end of that thrust. Ouch. Mmmm, I'd prefer not to haha |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 13, 2019 3:11:01 GMT
Now the question emerges...were ricasso implemented on jian of the single handed variety? I can't recall seeing any They're out there. Mostly on Republican swords. For example, mandarinmansion.com/green-dragon-jianThe longer ones are long enough to grab with the off-hand. An alternative is a jian with a tunkou. A Vietnamese example: www.mandarinmansion.com/vietnamese-kiem-straightswordThese will be too short to grab with the off-hand, but they're still sort-of a ricasso. Using Oakeshott types, compared to a type 13 or 18, more narrow, compared to a 15a or a rapier, they're appreciably wider. It's a pretty good style for an effective cut that isn't too shabby at thrusts either. I'm not entirely sure how representative my cold steel jian is, but it's an amazing blade at everything it does. Just needs a ricasso Just blunten the base of the blade. No need to have it sharp all the way - you would rarely cut with the base of the blade. Anyway, it doesn't even need to be that blunt - you can half-sword with a respectably sharp sword. If you're wrestling in armour with swords, with a jian, it could work well. The other uses for ricassos other than grabbing with the off-hand don't need long ricassos - fingering the ricasso with your sword hand, and providing safer blocking. Haven't heard of fingering the ricasso on jian. On many swords, the guard would make it difficult. The lack of protection against a blade sliding down you own onto that extended finger makes it risky (don't trust a ricasso to stop a sliding blade!). Given that the average jian is a lot lighter than the average rapier, and shorter-bladed, there's less need for extra strength/leverage (and if you do want it, get a jian with a long enough grip for two hands). The other reason, safer blocking, is that it's less likely to damage your blade. Supposedly, many jian were left with the base of the blade blunt for this. Haven't see any like this with good original edges, so can't confirm from experience. As for finding a replica, feast your eyes on this: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/30926/liangde-forge-jianDon't know of any currently in production. Jian with tunkou are easier: www.ebay.com/itm/100-HANDMADE-CHINESE-SWORD-TAIJI-JIAN-FOLDED-PATTERN-STEEL-SWORD-SHARP-BLADE/113227515103You could DIY a temporary tunkou with some sheet metal and play with it and see what you think. Make it as long as you need to fit your off-hand. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 13, 2019 5:22:14 GMT
Now the question emerges...were ricasso implemented on jian of the single handed variety? I can't recall seeing any They're out there. Mostly on Republican swords. For example, mandarinmansion.com/green-dragon-jianThe longer ones are long enough to grab with the off-hand. An alternative is a jian with a tunkou. A Vietnamese example: www.mandarinmansion.com/vietnamese-kiem-straightswordThese will be too short to grab with the off-hand, but they're still sort-of a ricasso. Using Oakeshott types, compared to a type 13 or 18, more narrow, compared to a 15a or a rapier, they're appreciably wider. It's a pretty good style for an effective cut that isn't too shabby at thrusts either. I'm not entirely sure how representative my cold steel jian is, but it's an amazing blade at everything it does. Just needs a ricasso Just blunten the base of the blade. No need to have it sharp all the way - you would rarely cut with the base of the blade. Anyway, it doesn't even need to be that blunt - you can half-sword with a respectably sharp sword. If you're wrestling in armour with swords, with a jian, it could work well. The other uses for ricassos other than grabbing with the off-hand don't need long ricassos - fingering the ricasso with your sword hand, and providing safer blocking. Haven't heard of fingering the ricasso on jian. On many swords, the guard would make it difficult. The lack of protection against a blade sliding down you own onto that extended finger makes it risky (don't trust a ricasso to stop a sliding blade!). Given that the average jian is a lot lighter than the average rapier, and shorter-bladed, there's less need for extra strength/leverage (and if you do want it, get a jian with a long enough grip for two hands). The other reason, safer blocking, is that it's less likely to damage your blade. Supposedly, many jian were left with the base of the blade blunt for this. Haven't see any like this with good original edges, so can't confirm from experience. As for finding a replica, feast your eyes on this: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/30926/liangde-forge-jianDon't know of any currently in production. Jian with tunkou are easier: www.ebay.com/itm/100-HANDMADE-CHINESE-SWORD-TAIJI-JIAN-FOLDED-PATTERN-STEEL-SWORD-SHARP-BLADE/113227515103You could DIY a temporary tunkou with some sheet metal and play with it and see what you think. Make it as long as you need to fit your off-hand. Excellent input, as always, thanks for your thoughts. Especially concerning the disparity in weight between a jian and a rapier or sidesword, that truly does change the dynamics at play significantly.
The Green Dragon Jian you linked to is exactly what I was thinking of, such a thick part before the guard would be perfect for added leverage during certain applications and precisely what I was wondering about. Although, given the blade length, I wonder how often it would be advantageous to grip with the off-hand compared to a longer specimen...another practical question entirely.
As for 'half-swording' the jian I have-no way! Cold Steel did a very nice job giving my jian a scarily sharp edge. If I blunted the thing I still wouldn't feel comfortable half swording it after seeing how it cuts. Not a bad idea blunting the base of the sword, although I don't think it would be quite thick enough to grip or finger tap as I do with rapier if there was just a mm or two of thickness there. Meanwhile, I'll have to keep searching for something like that green dragon you linked to as that looks perfect.
Returning to the idea of added power, seems like I should more seriously consider a two handed jian. Perhaps that Dragon King model, since it also sports a healthy ricasso.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 13, 2019 5:37:06 GMT
Returning to the idea of added power, seems like I should more seriously consider a two handed jian. Perhaps that Dragon King model, since it also sports a healthy ricasso. Here's my big two-handed jian:  Zhisword, 1960g, PoB 4", and pivot point close to the tip (maybe 3"?). It might be more vulnerable to spears and other polearms than a European sword of similar size, but would work very nicely against shorter swords. I wouldn't grab the ricasso, except in in-close armoured fighting. Holding it there would cut your reach a lot - to maybe less than a 30" one-handed jian (depending on where you grab, similar amount of blade, but one must consider the position of the body - going single-handed gives additional reach). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 16:17:26 GMT
Very informative, Timo. Thank you. I have been falling in love rather hard for Chinese swords since I received my jian made by Jin Shi last year. It handles so beautifully and the steel is exceptional. It's so disappointing that the forge is no longer active.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 14, 2019 5:10:41 GMT
Returning to the idea of added power, seems like I should more seriously consider a two handed jian. Perhaps that Dragon King model, since it also sports a healthy ricasso. Here's my big two-handed jian: Zhisword, 1960g, PoB 4", and pivot point close to the tip (maybe 3"?). It might be more vulnerable to spears and other polearms than a European sword of similar size, but would work very nicely against shorter swords. I wouldn't grab the ricasso, except in in-close armoured fighting. Holding it there would cut your reach a lot - to maybe less than a 30" one-handed jian (depending on where you grab, similar amount of blade, but one must consider the position of the body - going single-handed gives additional reach). What an awesome pair of jian. I'm really partial to the design on the bottom sword, the finish on it is just beautiful. Also, the dimensions on that sword seem perfect; thats roughly a 34 in. blade, right? The 'pommel' looks like it would be very nice to grip as well.
As for the top jian, I agree that without the crossguard design European swords have it wouldn't fare very well against polearms. My main critique of jian in general is that the guards don't seem to be the most tactically advantageous. That sword does have a most impressive ricasso though and I wonder how much of the weight it contributes...given the balance point mentioned, probably a fair amount. The grip length is a really nice size too...I still have no clue why European swords always have such 'shrunken' grips when East Asian blade designs understand having space between the hands is, well, handy
So how's the large Zhisword handle? It's a pretty interesting piece.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 14, 2019 5:12:29 GMT
Very informative, Timo. Thank you. I have been falling in love rather hard for Chinese swords since I received my jian made by Jin Shi last year. It handles so beautifully and the steel is exceptional. It's so disappointing that the forge is no longer active. You nabbed a Jin Shi? Lucky, I only was seriously considering purchasing from them right when they closed shop |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 14, 2019 12:20:15 GMT
I'm really partial to the design on the bottom sword, the finish on it is just beautiful. Also, the dimensions on that sword seem perfect; thats roughly a 34 in. blade, right? The 'pommel' looks like it would be very nice to grip as well. I would have preferred conventional fittings rather than these, but they're OK. The pommel is grippable, but a longer grip and a shorter pommel would have worked better. The pommel is hollow and fairly thin-walled, so it's quite light. It's basically the jian version of a longsword. 1350g, PoB at 6.5". With a heavier pommel, it could balance a lot like a European longsword, and would then have better point control (but point control is OK as is). If you measure the blade length from the very base (which is inside the guard), then 36". Measuring from the end of the guard, yes, about 34". I had the fun of playing with an antique longsword-jian. Qing, IIRC. Very similar weight, length, and handling. So, in appearance, this isn't so historical, but in handling it is very. The grip length is a really nice size too...I still have no clue why European swords always have such 'shrunken' grips when East Asian blade designs understand having space between the hands is, well, handy It's pretty normal for European swords of this weight and length to have grips of about the same length (see www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html for some data which includes hilt lengths (and more data where hilt length can be found from total minus blade); about 45cm is common). Some are even longer (e.g., the Danish type of very long-hilted two-handers). For shorter and lighter swords, you don't need such a long grip, and a shorter grip has advantages (less room for an opponent to grab, easier to move the sword across your body, easier to wear all day, possibly faster), so no reason to expect such extra-long grips on any but dedicated two-handed swords. While we see more two-handed grips on shorter swords in East Asia, those grips are usually only the length of European longsword grips at most (and many are short like short-gripped European hand-and-a-half swords). Not so much difference between Europe and East Asia (between Europe and East Asia, we see fewer long grips, but I think that's due to a shortage of swords intended for part-time or full-time use in two hands). So how's the large Zhisword handle? It's a pretty interesting piece. Heavy enough so you want to use it like a heavy two-hander. Can swing it around and do montante drills with it. No complaints about weight or balance or handling. Maybe the grip could be a little slimmer, but it isn't too chunky for easy use. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 14, 2019 16:00:51 GMT
I'm really partial to the design on the bottom sword, the finish on it is just beautiful. Also, the dimensions on that sword seem perfect; thats roughly a 34 in. blade, right? The 'pommel' looks like it would be very nice to grip as well. I would have preferred conventional fittings rather than these, but they're OK. The pommel is grippable, but a longer grip and a shorter pommel would have worked better. The pommel is hollow and fairly thin-walled, so it's quite light. It's basically the jian version of a longsword. 1350g, PoB at 6.5". With a heavier pommel, it could balance a lot like a European longsword, and would then have better point control (but point control is OK as is). If you measure the blade length from the very base (which is inside the guard), then 36". Measuring from the end of the guard, yes, about 34". I had the fun of playing with an antique longsword-jian. Qing, IIRC. Very similar weight, length, and handling. So, in appearance, this isn't so historical, but in handling it is very. The grip length is a really nice size too...I still have no clue why European swords always have such 'shrunken' grips when East Asian blade designs understand having space between the hands is, well, handy It's pretty normal for European swords of this weight and length to have grips of about the same length (see www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html for some data which includes hilt lengths (and more data where hilt length can be found from total minus blade); about 45cm is common). Some are even longer (e.g., the Danish type of very long-hilted two-handers). For shorter and lighter swords, you don't need such a long grip, and a shorter grip has advantages (less room for an opponent to grab, easier to move the sword across your body, easier to wear all day, possibly faster), so no reason to expect such extra-long grips on any but dedicated two-handed swords. While we see more two-handed grips on shorter swords in East Asia, those grips are usually only the length of European longsword grips at most (and many are short like short-gripped European hand-and-a-half swords). Not so much difference between Europe and East Asia (between Europe and East Asia, we see fewer long grips, but I think that's due to a shortage of swords intended for part-time or full-time use in two hands). So how's the large Zhisword handle? It's a pretty interesting piece. Heavy enough so you want to use it like a heavy two-hander. Can swing it around and do montante drills with it. No complaints about weight or balance or handling. Maybe the grip could be a little slimmer, but it isn't too chunky for easy use. Yeah I like the dark tones a lot, not as bright as most fittings that are often used. Interesting about the pommel being fairly hollow, I agree it would have been nice if it was solid for a great counterweight, as you mentioned the ability to maneuver the tip would be sublime.
Thanks for sharing that link to ARMA, I've not read that essay before. Looks very solid at first glance, thanks for the share. I'm still a bit flabbergasted how some longswords with considerable blade length (right around 3 feet) still only have a grip that's roughly 6-7 in. excluding the pommel, but that's just me and being used to katana with their long grips relative to the blade size. I always forget about the Danish style, I should probably just stick to grips such as those since they seem more natural to me.
Sounds like a very fun sword, doing montante drills with something like that must not only feel quite fun but also flows remarkably smoothly. I imagine not having the large guard makes it rather nice for overhead movements
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 14, 2019 22:24:05 GMT
I'm still a bit flabbergasted how some longswords with considerable blade length (right around 3 feet) still only have a grip that's roughly 6-7 in. excluding the pommel, but that's just me and being used to katana with their long grips relative to the blade size. I always forget about the Danish style, I should probably just stick to grips such as those since they seem more natural to me. On the longswords proper with 6-7" grips, the pommel is usually really an extension of the grip. On my Albion Ringeck, there is 7.25" of leather. With boths hands on the leather, they almost touch. However, this puts my bottom hand over the waist ridge. Moving my bottom hand back to just before the waist ridge, the heel of my hand is against the pommel, and there is about 1" between my hands. Dropping my hand further back, so that the heel of my hand is at the widest part of the pommel, about 2". Dropping back further, so the pommel is in my palm (and this is a comfortable grip), there is a hand-width between my hands. With my most-used katana, I have about 2" between my hands. There are various war/bastard/great-swords with 6-7" of grippable hilt, and to use them 2-handed leaves the hands snug together. We don't know why these are made that way - no details of their use. We see them in art, in big cleaving cuts (mail armour, one-handed sword and shield, spear, spear and shield, etc. around them). I should play a bit more with some swords like that - a nice job for the weekend. Sounds like a very fun sword, doing montante drills with something like that must not only feel quite fun but also flows remarkably smoothly. Exactly so. There's also other stuff you can do with thrusts that is easier because there is no guard. For the classic montante one-vs-many (which focusses on cuts and limits thrusts), guard or no guard makes little difference. Yeah I like the dark tones a lot, not as bright as most fittings that are often used. Interesting about the pommel being fairly hollow, I agree it would have been nice if it was solid for a great counterweight, as you mentioned the ability to maneuver the tip would be sublime. Patinated brass. Maybe about 50-100g more pommel might have been good. Solid would have been far too heavy. Tip control is OK, but not as good as the above-mentioned Ringeck (which has flawless tip control). This jian only suffers in comparison to very good swords; by itself, it's still good. I considered adding some lead or solder insider the pommel, but never got around to it. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 18, 2019 1:56:49 GMT
Patinated brass. Maybe about 50-100g more pommel might have been good. Solid would have been far too heavy. Tip control is OK, but not as good as the above-mentioned Ringeck (which has flawless tip control). This jian only suffers in comparison to very good swords; by itself, it's still good. I considered adding some lead or solder insider the pommel, but never got around to it.
It's a very cool design, it truly amazes me all the different looks brass can have depending on how its treated. Agreed, some pommels are just burdensome when they get too heavy. The pommel on my Windlass Musketeer is perfect despite weighing a lot, whereas the pommel on the Windlass Munich I've heard is atrociously heavy. So true, a solid pommel probably would do more harm than good, but the filler is a good idea. I think that would also work wonderfully for tip-heavy swords of other cultures as well, it'd be interested to see how a heavy blade like a Hanwei Wind and Thunder (compared to others in the genre/price range) would handle with a robust kashira serving as a counterweight.
See for longsword I really like to grip the pommel in my palm and keep my hand just below the guard, giving quite a bit of space between the two. I like having the extra handle length for increased leverage and perhaps it also serves as a counter-weight to the blade in a manner evocative of the pommel. I just get such nice tip control and momentum this way I perhaps have a disadvantageous liking to this grip posture.
I've tried and I just hate it. I really just like having that extra space, what can I say. It's a shame, because as much as I love my Homildon Hill by Windlass, I can't bring myself to practice with it for too long at a time since I've grown to dislike the grip length. I think perhaps the artwork intended to demonstrate how such swords could be used for dramatically powerful cleaves as needed. Maybe I just need to practice with it more to figure out why, for lack of a better way of describing it, 'choking' up on the grip with the hands tight together is effective gripping in contexts other than a forceful cleave.
I've always liked how Montante in a way exemplifies the principle of having a 'guard without a guard'; with those movements, the defense is built into the offense. I still need to get a proper (i.e. supersized) two-hander to mess around with...perhaps a jian might finally sway me (although it's still no montante). Dang it, I really need to start playing with big swords again.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Feb 18, 2019 2:24:38 GMT
The ricasso could also be there to assist parrying. Some 19th century swords had a large ricasso like section that provided a stiffer and more robust section to ward off blows. After all, you're gonna be parrying low on the sword blade, and cutting higher up.
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