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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 3:50:34 GMT
I would like to learn more about the Kabutowari and its uses, are there any schools which teach the use of this weapon? I have seen a couple pictures with one being uses like a jutte, dose anyone have any links?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 5:33:50 GMT
The kabutowari is a weapon designed to split helmets, it is also the predecessor of the jitte and is used much like the jitte. I don't know what schools teach it but it can be used in the same way as a knife or even an escrima stick.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 5:52:41 GMT
The kabutowari is a weapon designed to split helmets, it is also the predecessor of the jitte and is used much like the jitte. I don't know what schools teach it but it can be used in the same way as a knife or even an escrima stick. Split helmets? Either you're smoking something, or you've seen something I haven't. The only Kabutowari I've seen were essentially a short, square rod with a mildly forward-curving point, and a small guard-lug. Essentially a small Jitte, seamingly with the idea of being a blade-catch with the options of digging that point through a joint in your opponent's armor. Foot and a half, maybe two feet(from memory of pictures, it's too late for me to be looking for specific instances), but I've certainly never seen one with any kind of wedge or pick-point for actually attacking an opponent's helmet. The idea seems like kind of a waste. I mean, if armor could be cut through easily, it would be a waste to wear. If anything, a Kabutowari might be more useful for thrusting through the Mempo, similar to a Rondel or Misericordia. That reminds me, I once spend an hour listening to some idiot rambling on about how his dojo taught him that the Katana has no problem slicing through armor like butter. Seriously. A bad cut through Tatami can screw up a blade, but now they can slice through steel plates? I think some people WANT to buy into the hype. As if swordsmanship isn't interesting enough on its own, they need to combine it with fantasy just to find it palatable? Betcha one day, there's going to be crap like this attached to firearms. "My Sensei taught me that the AK-47 can summon lightning if you imbue it with electricity!" It could happen, and that alone makes me depressed. Sorry for my rant. A little off-topic, I know. It happens when it's 2am and I can't sleep.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 9:31:04 GMT
Kabutowari translates to "helmet breaker." I can't speak to how they did it mate as I am not a practitioner of kabutowari I am just repeating what I have read. There is also a "test to destruction" where some smiths will make a blade specifically to see if it can split a helmet and I believe there are pictures on the net of people doing it sucessfully. It is not easy to do and it takes a very special technique to be able to perform a kabutowari.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 14:16:22 GMT
Well, I have a feeling Kabutowari is a lot like the term "sword-breaker".
For anyone who doesn't know, a sword-breaker is a European, off-hand dagger with large teeth meant to catch and hold the opponent's blade or "break" the attack. It's a common misconception that the sword-breaker was meant for snapping the opponent's blade, but common sense dictates that any decent blade will flex greatly and only set if bent too far. Not to mention that the force needed would be great, probably causing one of the individuals lose their grip before anything snaps.
I would accept the Kabutowary as attacking the helmet, though doubtfully doing damage to it. A good, solid knock to a helmet can be quite disorienting, and I stil think the point would be useful.
I wish I could find a picture of a nice antique. Yahoo! image seach only brings up the crappy Bugei version...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 14:29:12 GMT
And Google saves! Note the square cross-section. I very much want one of these, just not the bland Bugei version...
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Post by salvatore on Jul 13, 2008 21:36:57 GMT
Doesn't Obata sensei(Shinkendo founder) have the world record for largest gash put into a helmet?
At any rate, I don't think that sort of technique is taught. I would think that Ninjutsu would have something, because samurai were the enemy on the ninja...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 22:00:27 GMT
At any rate, I don't think that sort of technique is taught. I would think that Ninjutsu would have something, because samurai were the enemy on the ninja... What?! Are you saying Ninja, and not Samurai, would have a helmet-splitting attack because they fought Samurai? Because if you are, I might need to smack you, since that essentially dictates that Samurai never fought against other Samurai. Please clear up the statement.
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Post by salvatore on Jul 13, 2008 22:52:17 GMT
At any rate, I don't think that sort of technique is taught. I would think that Ninjutsu would have something, because samurai were the enemy on the ninja... What?! Are you saying Ninja, and not Samurai, would have a helmet-splitting attack because they fought Samurai? Because if you are, I might need to smack you, since that essentially dictates that Samurai never fought against other Samurai. Please clear up the statement. Heh, I deserve a smack! I wasn't too clear. I meant that the ninja would at times attack Samurai if threatened(and by threatened, I mean attached o they were being disrespectful, it happens) and vise-versa. Samurai often fought other samurai, this is obvious! Warring over fiefs was a must!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2008 7:55:38 GMT
I always thought that the ninja's objective was to complete a given task in secrecy, be it theft, spying, or assasinations. Unless I am very mistaken, I do not think ninja would openly engage in combat with bushi ( more dignified term for samurai) unless it was absolutely necesary, i.e. escape or completion of task. I do not believe a ninja would want to risk exposing themselves by fighting a samurai over a matter of disrespect either. A ninja was only of use to his/her master so long as their identity and true purpose were not known. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by salvatore on Jul 14, 2008 20:34:35 GMT
I always thought that the ninja's objective was to complete a given task in secrecy, be it theft, spying, or assasinations. Unless I am very mistaken, I do not think ninja would openly engage in combat with bushi ( more dignified term for samurai) unless it was absolutely necesary, i.e. escape or completion of task. I do not believe a ninja would want to risk exposing themselves by fighting a samurai over a matter of disrespect either. A ninja was only of use to his/her master so long as their identity and true purpose were not known. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Trust me, if you were disrespectful towards a samurai...well, things typically came off your body. And a ninja was a master of espionage, they'd fight if they had to, but prefered to pick off an opponent while hiding among the trees, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2008 20:55:18 GMT
Ninja were not "Masters of Espionage". They were just trained to blend in with the area they were in. Whether it was a crowded street, the inside of a castle, etc. They just walked around gathering info, and maybe doing some sabotage.
I wonder how many ninja died trying to do an assassination?
Kabutowari being used to break helmets? It doesn't look like a weapon that would fulfill that purpose, but who knows?
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Post by salvatore on Jul 15, 2008 1:51:26 GMT
Ninja were not "Masters of Espionage". They were just trained to blend in with the area they were in. Whether it was a crowded street, the inside of a castle, etc. They just walked around gathering info, and maybe doing some sabotage. I wonder how many ninja died trying to do an assassination? Kabutowari being used to break helmets? It doesn't look like a weapon that would fulfill that purpose, but who knows? I've seen specific techniques used to stab the un-protected areas of the helmet. And espionage was the ninjas game, if not masters, they were damn good at it. The definition of Espionage is "the systematic use of spies to get military or political secrets". It fits well.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 15, 2008 3:20:45 GMT
I'm confused... How did a thread about kabutowari turn into a thread about spreading ninja myths? On a note actually relevant to the original topic...how exactly were (are?) kabutowari used? I can see the cmparison to a rondel dagger, they do look like a very fierce thrusting implement and if I may, they also remind me of a giant can/bottle opener. Perhaps this was the trick?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 9:13:14 GMT
Unprotected areas of the helmet? Salvatore I really think you need to think before you put things down in writing. The purpose of a helmet was to protect the head. Are you practicing ninjitsu salvatore? What I am learning has nothing to do with striking at the helmets, areas of the head but mostly areas that would have been unprotected whilst wearing armour. Ninja's were generally ordinary villagers, that changed in later centuries when samurai on orders from their liege lords took on the role of ninja to disguise their identity, often for the purposes of assassination or espionage but that was a very rare occurence.
The kabutowari is a striking instrument, not a stabbing instrument.
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Post by ninjavanish76 on Jul 16, 2008 22:29:40 GMT
Lol....ninja myths.Theres lots of thease going around:)
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Post by rammstein on Jul 16, 2008 22:34:31 GMT
Exactly....
Most of what people hear about ninjas is totally false.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 23:25:14 GMT
Yeah, all those supposedly educated people that try to tell you ninjas were really a dirty low-class of peasants who basically stole their weapons and were used as expendible assassins are liars! We all know how great REAL ninjas are...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 2:02:22 GMT
Couldn't resist adding:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 3:03:23 GMT
Depends on the era you are talking about, later in japanese history there were ninjas who were well trained assassins and spies.
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