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Post by Brian of DBK on Jul 15, 2008 15:42:52 GMT
What is with all the hate with welding? Welds are used on many things that are stressed much more than the tang of a sword. One of the tests in welding is to take 2 flat steel plates and weld them down the middle to create one plate, you then bend the flat plate into a C without the welds breaking. If welds can withstand this I wouldn't worry about them on your tang if they are done well. People also don't like it because it is not historically accurate. For that matter, so are most of the swords in the sub $300 market. I still stand by the fact that Gen 2 is the best value in this market. Their swords are the most aesthetically appealing, and their scabbards are the best BAR NONE. No I wasn't paid to say this, this is my personal opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 15:52:43 GMT
I'm not really into euro swords ( more like cause i don't have the cash for soo many things to buy , i'm having trouble already, lol ), but i don't understand why so many ppl seem put off by this info. I perfectly agree with what Brian said and if it's actually STRONGER than other methods and for the sake of it, seems to be indeed proved so, why make a problem out of it?
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 15, 2008 16:18:52 GMT
It isn't that this method is STRONGER. Just that, when done really well, it seems to be "strong enough" for most users. Especially on single hand swords. And the big thing is that it keeps the price down.
Assembling medieval European swords as they were done "back in the day" requires quite a bit of hand fitting, thus requiring more time and driving costs up some. But it's definitely the strongest method of hilt construction, when done correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 16:24:51 GMT
I guess i've been misunderstood. I'm not saying it's stronger in general. I'm saying it's stronger compared to the other option Gen2 used ( the one i suppose would be the "right" one normally ) and it was proved to work flawlessly so far so it really shouldn't bother ppl.
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Post by rammstein on Jul 15, 2008 16:25:50 GMT
That's an honest question Well lets try it with katanas - would you buy a katana with no ito and simply a polished wooden handle? Similar to valiant armoury katanas - odds are no, at least I wouldn't if I was into katanas. That's not to disparage people who buy those katanas, I'm sure they are still good swords - but isn't a semblence of accuracy also important to you? Mike is right, original fittings of european swords were pretty darn impossible to loosen short of damaging the steel. If you look at the guard fittings on albion swords there isn't even a gap - the whole is the perfect shape for the blade's cross-section and it's 100% steel on steel contact.
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Post by axeman on Jul 15, 2008 17:04:51 GMT
WELL what ever way they make them i think its kind of funny it takes somebody on the fourm not the COMPANY gen-2 to let you know how they put on the handles it make me think what else they arent telling us its GOOD TO KNOW the TRUTH IT SETS YOU FREE ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 17:23:57 GMT
What is with all the hate with welding? Welds are used on many things that are stressed much more than the tang of a sword. One of the tests in welding is to take 2 flat steel plates and weld them down the middle to create one plate, you then bend the flat plate into a C without the welds breaking. If welds can withstand this I wouldn't worry about them on your tang if they are done well. During my time as an apprentice millwright i have seen some welds hold together under mind boggling forces. As in most mills we had vertical steel pylons that made up the racks that the bundles were placed in, these racks were about 12 feet high, 2 foot wide, and around 30 feet long, and there were hundreds of them... Alot of times the crane-ops would try to jam a bundle into a rack that was too skinny and after 120 tons of steel was stacked in there the pylons would often break. So we had to weld them quite often, and i've witnessed one single welded pylon hold all of that weight long enough for our cranes to get over there and begin to secure the rack. Which amazed me, that when done correctly using the proper rods for the particular steel being welded that it could have that kind of strength... But i've seen welds break too... And it seemed to me after working there for awhile that the welds would hold very well against a steadily controlled increase in pressure. Slowly adding pressure evenly never seemed to break welds. But when a material handler would "miss the mark" (which happened often) and the bundle would slam into the pylons the welds would snap like twigs. Now i don't know what the weight+speed=impact force ratio is for a 10 ton bundle of steel moving at X-feet per second? But i would guess that its less than 120 tons of force. So in conclusion: I would venture to say the welds on swords could be susceptible to the same types of failures. Seeing how cutting or chopping with a sword is more of a forceful and sudden impact, than a slow and steadily controlled addition of pressure. Sudden structural "shock" will always concentrate the distributed energy through the entire structure,... but i find often that the weld is the breaking point. And i think that part of it has to do with the fact that the resulting metals that make up the weld itself are often much harder than the metals they are holding together. So i think this creates a point where the forces cannot be absorbed by the structure and allowed to flex and or distribute the "shock energy" that it could if it were all one solid piece of the same material. Just my take on it,... not an expert,... just something that i've seen quite a bit of. Regards, Jim Gall
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Post by rammstein on Jul 15, 2008 17:36:40 GMT
That's interesting Jim....hadn't even considered half of that.
+1
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 15, 2008 17:48:10 GMT
Jim, that's a great observation. And one that strikes a chord with me too. I have worn out and repaired a lot of steel targets used for handguns and rifles. These are made of 3/8 - 1/2 inch steel plate that's hardened to 58 RC, so they shatter bullets on impact. But invariably, after long enough, the fittings will break and need to be welded back together.
Invariably, the welded fittings, even when over-built, break much sooner than the original fittings. And they always break through the welds. It's my guess that the welds are actually harder than the base material, but since post manufacture welds aren't subjected to heat treatment, they are also somewhat brittle and can crack and come apart under repeated sudden impact stress.
Maybe that's why sword tangs that are welded after heat treat have such a terrible track record, whereas those that are welded prior to heat treat seem to fare so much better? Does that seem similar to your observations?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 18:47:22 GMT
Jim, that's a great observation. And one that strikes a chord with me too. I have worn out and repaired a lot of steel targets used for handguns and rifles. These are made of 3/8 - 1/2 inch steel plate that's hardened to 58 RC, so they shatter bullets on impact. But invariably, after long enough, the fittings will break and need to be welded back together. Invariably, the welded fittings, even when over-built, break much sooner than the original fittings. And they always break through the welds. It's my guess that the welds are actually harder than the base material, but since post manufacture welds aren't subjected to heat treatment, they are also somewhat brittle and can crack and come apart under repeated sudden impact stress. Maybe that's why sword tangs that are welded after heat treat have such a terrible track record, whereas those that are welded prior to heat treat seem to fare so much better? Does that seem similar to your observations? Well i've never owned any sword with a welded tang so i can't say i have any experience with them specifically. I was just making a sort of educated observation from my experience with welding, and applying it to swords the best i could. But i'm glad you have seen this happen in your experience with the firearm targets because it would seem that we're on to something in regards to further understanding these failures when they happen... EDIT:Its an interesting topic... In fact, i could technically say i owe my life to a single weld. One day the rack nearest to our workbench was so over packed that two of the three pylons snapped, the journeyman i was working under and myself were rebuilding a drive mechanism at the time and heard what sounded like a thunder clap. Of course we both got the heck out of there! Once we came back to examine the rack after it had been emptied we realized just how lucky we were to not have been killed. Sadly though, others weren't so fortunate. <Not in this particular case but other similar accidents i've seen... By the way,... i've seen your personal collection. Unbelievable!!! You could start your own store with all those swords... Very Nice!
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Post by code on Jul 15, 2008 19:07:26 GMT
Makes sense as normally when welding your heating a small area of metal to what, a couple thousand degrees F? and then usually just letting it air cool. That'll mess up any heat treating thats for sure. Would be interesting to see some tests done with normal welded vs heat treating afterwards.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 20:13:04 GMT
Makes sense as normally when welding your heating a small area of metal to what, a couple thousand degrees F? and then usually just letting it air cool. That'll mess up any heat treating thats for sure. Would be interesting to see some tests done with normal welded vs heat treating afterwards. Indeed,.. i would also like to see some controlled tests done on these methods. Perhaps if some of our members who are more versed in metal properties could weigh-in with their thoughts it could shed more light on the subject?
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jul 15, 2008 20:53:32 GMT
Makes sense as normally when welding your heating a small area of metal to what, a couple thousand degrees F? and then usually just letting it air cool. That'll mess up any heat treating thats for sure. Would be interesting to see some tests done with normal welded vs heat treating afterwards. Indeed,.. i would also like to see some controlled tests done on these methods. Perhaps if some of our members who are more versed in metal properties could weigh-in with their thoughts it could shed more light on the subject? wheres sam when ya need'em
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 16, 2008 2:08:27 GMT
Many manufacturers don't heat treat their tangs at all. (Yes it's called "heat treating". NOT "Tempering". Code you said it right. But Clyde and ncavin calling the heat treating process "the temper" is incorrect. Most of us know that, but it still bugs me that a sword company can't get that straight.)
For example, please view these videos of the "heat treatment" of: A. And albion sword.
B. A Castle Keep sword by Rob Miller
Notice in both examples the tang is not hardened. Not just the tip where these welds are taking place, but the whole tang. Rob Miller barely quenches the shoulder even.
Thus the annealing of the tip of the tang is inconsequential. A blade must spring well to handle it's part in cutting, where as teh tang is just for you to hang on to. Very different forces.
I have been cutting thread into my tangs, and I do anneal them after the heat treatment to facilitate this. It is an extra step in the process, and time consuming.
Also from the Albion video can be seen how the guards are able to fit to the shoulder with no gap (as mentioned by Rammstein). The guard and pommels are lost wax cast, and the shoulder is computer cut. So they can make peices that fit together exactly. A hand made sword can not feasibly replicate this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 3:51:47 GMT
So they can make peices that fit together exactly. A hand made sword can not feasibly replicate this. Why not? A careful hand and careful eye and you can get just as tight of a fit as any computer, even more so is possible actually, I have seen such a tight fit that you would swear up and down it was one solid peice. It is entirely feasible, and easily done with a drill press and needle files no CNC or even a mill required. Brenno did you mean it's not feasible for a lower end production company? Swordboy, sure wish I had the old shop with the welder and stuff to play with . Kudos to Clyde for stepping up and explaining things firsthand, that is friggin awesome. As to threaded rod welded onto a tang, it's a tricky thing. If the company (not necessarily Gen 2) is using regular threaded rod, then the weld, if done properly, will be stronger then the threaded rod itself! Threaded rod, the run of the mill stuff comes in all kinds of varieties, is generally quite crappy stuff. 9 times out of 10 it is probably the rod where it meets the weld or somewhere on the rod itself where a break will happen. Some say "oh it's just the tang it's not that critical" but there is ALOT of forces going on in the hilt of a blade. In my personal opinion the Gen 2 tangs look serviceable and acceptabe, as is proven by they're service record. Not my prefferred way to make a sword but well done. With the threads right onto the tang, there is a chance of some kinds of stress from heating annealed or not, which might have been the cause of Gen 2's breaking pommels when they did so. I like ALbion's way the best of course but still yet the neck down the tang into a round rod. I prefer to have the tang go through the pommel be a tapered rounded corners rectangular hole but it's just personal preference not better or worse, as Albions prove that the necking down works friggin awesome.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 4:19:51 GMT
Am I the only one that really hates screw on pommels?
Also - maybe this is also just me, but doesn't hardening steel make it stronger? wouldn't it be more serviceable for the tang to be hardened then heat treated down to a ridiculously tough spring temper in the low-mid forties rather than leave it soft and ductile?
Also, what's wrong with the word temper?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 16, 2008 5:39:35 GMT
wouldn't it be more serviceable for the tang to be hardened then heat treated (tempered) down to a ridiculously tough spring temper in the low-mid forties rather than leave it soft and ductile? Not criticizing but using the above to roughly illustrate the use of the terms. Heat Treating is the term given to a process comprising several stages: Stage 1. Normalizing: Heating the whole blade up to an even critical temp, then allowing it to air cool evenly. This allows the crystaline structure affected by the stresses of forging / grinding to be evened out throughout. This may be repeated a few tmes. Stage 2. Quenching: Again Heating up the steel to a critical temperature. Roughly 1500 - 1600F depending on the steel. Then, Introducing the hot steel to a much cooler medium to bring the temperature down at a particular speed, thus creating a hard crystaline structure in the steel. Stage 3. Tempering: Re heating the hardened steel (to anywhere from 350F-800F depending on the desired outcomes) to reduce the hardness and impart more flexible and resilient properties, making it less brittle and more springy. This may involve several cycles of heating at various temperatures. I hope this illustrates the difference between the term "heat treating" and "tempering". Use of the word temper in this thread: Yes Dan you are correct, that is done before temper so as not to create a weaker spot on the tang having been done before the temper I don't really see it as a huge issue. Whereas Dan got it straight saying: from the patination which is the same as the rest of the tang..it looks like it was done before heat treat.. I'm not here to argue, just to correct a COMMON misunderstanding. This is one that has always come up, not just in this thread, and will continue to plague us as long as there are sword collectors. If people think it's OK to just call the Heat treatment process "tempering" then that's fine. I probably call all the different types of Japanese swords "katanas" that are not katanas at all. It's just evidence that I don't know the difference, and as long as I care not to consider the difference, I'll keep incorrectly calling them all katanas, and bugging all the Japanese sword enthusiasts in a similar vain. Guilty as charged.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 5:48:43 GMT
Ok...so with that out of the way...
Anyone in the know to answer the query?
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 16, 2008 6:33:14 GMT
So, Brenno, with the tempering phase, do you just let it air cool after heating. Just curious.
Adam, I don't care for screw on pommels myself, part of the reason I haven't gotten a DSA.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 16, 2008 10:22:02 GMT
So, Brenno, with the tempering phase, do you just let it air cool after heating. Just curious. Yup, When I temper a knife which I've heat treated myself, I just take it out of the oven after 90 minutes and let it cool in the room temp air. Re pommels: I just like to be able to disassemble a sword. Be it by a screw on pommel, or a nut setup like the ATs. I have done two swords with nuts, and three with screw on pommels, the rest were peened. The right amount of loctite holds a screw on pommel good. Sometimes too good.
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