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Post by dand on Jul 12, 2008 15:12:42 GMT
Well, if you've ever wondered what a Gen 2 Witham's tang looked like here's your chance. After I got my River Witham, I immediately decided to start upgrading it, so I removed the ugly suede.....and to my dismay, the wood underneath was cracked in several places...at one part gaping about an 8th of an inch and showing the tang underneath. So I decided to replace the handle altogether. In doing so I also discovered what that ugly washer is there for.....there's a welded rod (they make me nervous, but this one looks pretty well done....and from the patination which is the same as the rest of the tang..it looks like it was done before heat treat...which is probably why I haven't heard of any failing). Apparently the washer is threaded to where they want the pommel to start, then the pommel is threaded on (I think....it doesn't appear to be just slipped on) and then the rest of the rod is peened over. I for one am glad that the new Henry V has ditched the washer as I don't understand the reason for it......why not just make the sold tang extend to where you need it and have the pommel rest on that? (incidentally if they had just screwed the pommel down to where the sold tang starts, they would have matched the original Witham sword's grip measurement exactly). Anyway, I'll probably have a few more modifications done to this soon, and I'll post them in the customization section, Dan
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 12, 2008 16:32:35 GMT
Thanks, Dan. That is informative. +1 I'd have never guessed the Gen2's have a tang weld like that.
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Post by chakobsa on Jul 12, 2008 17:39:23 GMT
Yeah, the leather can cover a multitude of sins. When I stripped the leather from the handle of my windlass 15th century longsword I discovered that the wood was badly cracked. It can't be that hard to use properly seasoned and stabilized wood instead of what looks like a piece of kindling.
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Post by 293master293 on Jul 12, 2008 17:49:30 GMT
That is mildly disappointing. I could have sworn that I read somewhere that said Gen2 never welds their tangs on. At any rate, I have never heard of a Gen2 tang breaking so I guess that welding it is okay.
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Post by code on Jul 12, 2008 19:01:53 GMT
I may be splitting hairs here but the tang isn't welded, the threaded part it. Take a look in this thread where I expressed concern about a welded thread, the link to SFI is an interesting read. Funny how they will suddenly accept stuff like that when certain respected people do it... I really, really don't like it myself but it seems to be sound. Time will show
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 12, 2008 20:12:34 GMT
Yeah, I misspoke, the thread welded to the end of the tang like that is acceptable to many. Myself I'd rather not have it. I don't understang how it's cheaper to do it that way than peen it in the first place, seems like they're adding a step to me. I'm probably missing something.
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Post by chakobsa on Jul 12, 2008 20:25:10 GMT
There's welded thread and there's welded thread. Go to the Lutel website; www.lutel.cz/ and scroll to the bottom of the F.A.Q then click on "Construction sword, rapier, daggers" there's a world of difference between that and the way the thread is attached on the Valiant/atrim swords.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 12, 2008 20:29:06 GMT
So, am I correct in that Lutel welds the rod on and then threads it? Where as the VA's have the treaded rod welded on? If so, why not just thread the tang itself?
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Post by chakobsa on Jul 12, 2008 20:42:27 GMT
So, am I correct in that Lutel welds the rod on and then threads it? Where as the VA's have the treaded rod welded on? If so, why not just thread the tang itself? I can't be certain but I think that the rods Lutel use are already threaded(hard to tell in those photos). Windlass just thread the end of the tang which to me at least seems a fairly sensible way of doing it. I'd have been more than happy with my Valiant if they'd just made the impressively beefy tang a little bit longer and threaded the last inch or so.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2008 21:00:19 GMT
When I cut down my Shrewsbury and tried to thread the new tang-end, I blunted the die without making a mark on the tang. I am guessing the tang has to be annealed first, adding another step to production, which is undesirable. I'm sure welding a rod on takes much less time and effort.
I wonder then then is why don't they just thread it before hardening? would the hardening process deform the threads maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2008 14:09:37 GMT
We were grinding the tang and then threading it, but we were having pommels snap off. So we went to a welded on (Bigger rod). My bad, did not update the info on the sites. This makes for a stronger end for the pommel and then it is peened. Since we can not cast pommels, they are hand machined they still have to drill through the pommels so they have to be threaded, but we still peen them on the ends for added strength, and historical look. Yes Dan you are correct, that is done before temper so as not to create a weaker spot on the tang. Please do look at the size of our tangs, and what Dan did not tell you not only are the wide but our bar stock starts at 5/16" thick, so the tangs are 5/16" thick as well. Sorry for any confusion, but until we can cast this is the strongest solution we came up with, and we have been doing this for several years now. Now Dan, the wood splitting. It is a hardwood but with the handles fitting so tightly on to the tangs and with our foundry being in a tropical area, the wood dries out and shrinks, causing the splitting. I am sure that Windlass and Hanwei, Valiant, etc. experience the same thing. We could dry the wood, but once it comes out of the kiln and hit the humid air, moister goes right back in, so it would be the same thing. We are having to go more to leather wrapped handles to stop allot of this, we have no choice. Now we could make a big round bore in the handle and use filler so that once the wood dries when it gets here and it shrinks, it would not crack, but then the handles would be weak. So to keep them strong and tight we are moving to the leather wrapped handles, more and more. Yes we still epoxy the handles so that when cracked they will not pull apart or twist as on some I have have read here, and the epoxy holding the leather on the wood also helps hold it strong. I hope this helps in understanding on why we do what we do. Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2008 14:20:15 GMT
Great information Clyde.
Coming from a manufacturing / Quality Control background it is good to hear the reasoning and thought behind why things are done the way they are. Not uncommon for the customer to be unaware of these things, and great that you would share that information.
It is not always just a cost issue, is it?
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Post by dand on Jul 14, 2008 15:02:33 GMT
Thanks Clyde, A couple of clarifications.....thanks for the mentioning of the 5/16th thickness...that was something I was impressed with and forgot to mention. I understand the difficulty of wood drying out and in your defense the grip did not feel at all loose....but since it would affect what i intended to do cosmetically, i decided to replace the grip. However, as far as the pommel; since they are machined, couldn't you avoid having to have threads at all if you simply machined a shallow slot for the tang either side of the drilled hole? This would key the pommel to the tang and would help to prevent twisting during peening. This is something that should be able to be done with machining, would be closer historically and should also be very strong (Tinker and Gus Trim use a similar process but with a threaded tang for a recessed nut). Just some suggestions if you're looking to improve your process, but overall i was impressed with the strength of the assembly even if i wasn't thrilled with the aesthetics of it, Dan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2008 15:28:59 GMT
Thanks Clyde, A couple of clarifications.....thanks for the mentioning of the 5/16th thickness...that was something I was impressed with and forgot to mention. I understand the difficulty of wood drying out and in your defense the grip did not feel at all loose....but since it would affect what i intended to do cosmetically, i decided to replace the grip. However, as far as the pommel; since they are machined, couldn't you avoid having to have threads at all if you simply machined a shallow slot for the tang either side of the drilled hole? This would key the pommel to the tang and would help to prevent twisting during peening. This is something that should be able to be done with machining, would be closer historically and should also be very strong (Tinker and Gus Trim use a similar process but with a threaded tang for a recessed nut). Just some suggestions if you're looking to improve your process, but overall i was impressed with the strength of the assembly even if i wasn't thrilled with the aesthetics of it, Dan Hmm, PM sent. Need more info.
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Post by oos3thoo on Jul 14, 2008 23:27:28 GMT
If it is welded on, then why classify it as battle ready? I wouldn't go to battle with one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 0:17:06 GMT
What is with all the hate with welding? Welds are used on many things that are stressed much more than the tang of a sword. One of the tests in welding is to take 2 flat steel plates and weld them down the middle to create one plate, you then bend the flat plate into a C without the welds breaking. If welds can withstand this I wouldn't worry about them on your tang if they are done well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 0:29:47 GMT
That's the very reason they're disliked, Will. More often than not in our price range they're not well done. When one moves up the scale to Lutel (for example), the tangs are very beefy and the welds very well done, according to pics and user descriptions. The threaded welded on rod on a Lutel sword is about 9mm diameter. All too often, however, in the sub $300 range there's a tendancy to weld on tiny bits of soft threaded rod, leading to failures under use. Take Cold Steel's Euro swords. They have perfectly acceptable, wide, beefy tangs onto which they weld a bit of crappy 3/16" threaded rod, which is expected to hold the sword together. Failures at this point are legendary for the Hand-and-a-Half sword CS offers, and we recently had a member have a similar failure on a CS Great Sword. Hanwei had some trouble in this area too, which at least has inspired them to go to a riveted assembly (at least on a couple pieces). On the Gen2 specifically, I wasn't aware they were done this way 'til now, but Ive never heard of a Gen2 tang failure, so it doesn't worry me a whole lot.
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Post by axeman on Jul 15, 2008 0:49:35 GMT
THATS some great info on that GEN-2 sword i was going to buy one. now i am glad I did NOT THANKS ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 14:52:53 GMT
I was thinking of buying one too. Considering their reputation though this doesn't really worry me. It looks quite beefy and having been done before the temper I don't really see it as a huge issue.
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Post by 293master293 on Jul 15, 2008 15:09:12 GMT
What is with all the hate with welding? Welds are used on many things that are stressed much more than the tang of a sword. One of the tests in welding is to take 2 flat steel plates and weld them down the middle to create one plate, you then bend the flat plate into a C without the welds breaking. If welds can withstand this I wouldn't worry about them on your tang if they are done well. People also don't like it because it is not historically accurate.
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