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Post by elbrittania39 on Nov 26, 2018 7:33:05 GMT
Something I think about a lot when practicing historical martial arts is compliance. To be clear, by compliance I mean when one's opponent acts in a way that is condusive to how you're taught to fight.
For example, take two people who have been trained in rapier. They both have the expectation that a fight between will play out in some form of lunging thrusts, efficient wrist parries, quick ripostes and the use of significant distance between the fighters given the long blades. That would be an example of compliance. But if one duelist decides to flip his rapier around, hold the blade, and swing the hilt at his opponent like some bizarre maul, the fight loses compliance.
Obviously using a rapier like that is a terrible idea, but the efect it has is that the guy using his rapier the way he's supposed to suddenly has less specific training that allows him to engage this new threat. Even though he will probably win easily, it's not because he was trained on how to face a murder stroke from a rapier.
This concept gets important when you consider many martial artists always train with compliant opponents and therefore don't know how their techniques and fighting theories hold up when pitted against different weapons and style. You know that fancy machine gun speed close quarter fighting you see in Wing Chun? Turns out, that only really works if your opponent engages you in the same manner at the same distance. If your opponent is instead keeping their distance and throwing blows or grappling when you close, it suddenly doesn't work as well.
I'm not trying to hate on Wing Chun or anything, in fact, I think ALL martial arts suffer from this to some degree. They develop fighting theory off the notion their opponent will be similarly armed and trained.
Therefore, I think it's a good idea to take martial arts out of their normal context more often to see how they preform without compliance. This can be a small change of context like a Polish Sabre practitioner fighting a French Sabre practitioner, or it could be a massive context change like take a small sword against a zweihander. Until we try martial arts without compliance, we seriously lack knowledge on how styles can and cant defend against one another.
Also consider that in historical battles, soldiers would often encounter opponents from other countries who had been trained to use their weapons differently, and possibly given entirely different weapons. A 15th century European Knight would not find a compliant opponent in a 15th century Ottoman Janissary. Therefore, if a longsword fencer only fights other longsword fencers, he or she will miss out on crucial historical context on how that weapon would react to a opponent with a kilij and sheild.
So in closing, when learning a martial art, keep compliance in mind and try and make sure that something you think works well or doesn't work well within that art isn't just a byproduct of fighting an opponent doing the same things as you.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 26, 2018 7:51:54 GMT
I like to fence against other styles. Some I've done are sabre against longsword, Sabre against montante, sabre against rapier, and spadroon against rapier, and of course different styles of rapier against each other, and different styles of sabre (polish vs 19th c military) and basket hilt sword against each other. Of these, I found sabre vs rapier to be at the greatest disadvantage. Spadroon vs rapier was interesting as you can essentially crossbreed sabre and rapier and get a good result. I also fought against my friend who has no training and some imo very flawed ideas about weapon based martial arts. Being untrained, he was very aggressive, and I had no mask as well. I found that being put into a defensive situation with no protective gear I played it very conservatively and tried to strike mainly at vital targets, such as the wrist, face, and bicep. Before I gave him a mask we actually both fought without masks, and I hit him on the lip just as we agreed no head shots. Completely reflexive on my part, I saw an opening and took it without thinking. Shoulda thrust after cutting!
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Post by leviathansteak on Nov 26, 2018 7:52:17 GMT
Very interesting and very true.
Im not an amazing fencer but i consider myself quite competent in my hema club, doing fairly well in sparring against much more experienced practitioners.
However one day a newbie started swinging and cutting like an absolute loony without a care for tempo or his 'survival' and i have to admit that i struggled with this guy because he was so different from the way experienced people fight.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 26, 2018 7:58:02 GMT
Very interesting and very true. Im not an amazing fencer but i consider myself quite competent in my hema club, doing fairly well in sparring against much more experienced practitioners. However one day a newbie started swinging and cutting like an absolute loony without a care for tempo or his 'survival' and i have to admit that i struggled with this guy because he was so different from the way experienced people fight. Same in my own experience, even against good sport fencers. A shock to be fighting experienced fencers, and then fight against someone who seems to not think they'll get struck.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Nov 26, 2018 8:01:35 GMT
I'd batted writing this around for a longtime. It was reinforced when I was fencing rapier, and my time practicing saber led me to weave in a few cuts. I quickly learned it caught most of the other rapier fencers really off guard. Even if it didn't always work and I just got stabbed, it forced them to preform very strange and awkward parries to intercept a sudden slash they weren't ready for.
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Post by pellius on Nov 26, 2018 14:30:09 GMT
Over the roughly 30 years I’ve studied martial arts, I can offer the following as one person’s experience and perspective.
I would begin by stating that, imho, “non-compliance” training (to use the OP language) is a crucial part of MA training in any style.
Having stated my agreement with the concept, I would respectfully disagree with the implication that many MA schools and systems fail to engage in such training. I have studied a number of MA styles, including Wing Chun. Most schools I have attended used “compliant” training to learn techniques, build muscle memory, increase strength, balance and stamina, and develop an understanding of various techniques and strategies.
Most schools I attended were cognizant that their system was exactly that - a system. As a system, it would have strengths and weaknesses, advantages and vulnerabilities. Most schools also acknowledged that their system was intended primarily or historically to excel in a given purpose and context, such as sporting competition, rules regulated fighting, “street” fighting, self defense, military engagement, etc.
As such, the master of the school would seek to develop a broad range of abilities in a student, based on the abilities and resources of the student (including availability of training time), and help them develop toward the goals of the program.
Most schools I attended incorporated “non-compliant” training in a very substantial way. Doing so indeed helped develop the student in many ways.
As for the Wing Chun example, my opinion is that, like all MA, the system was developed for certain purposes in a particular context. The few schools I am closely familiar with (in the US) will often incorporate non-traditional elements to deal with common situations outside of the historical context. The schools will typically distinguish such elements from the traditional curriculum, and give close explanation regarding the integration of such techniques into the traditional system.
Like any technique, the rolling punch is a method intended for a particular set of situations. It a very effective technique if used skillfully in the appropriate circumstances. Also like any technique, it must initially be learned by the student in its intended context. Only study, training, practice, and experience will permit the student to master the technique and it’s application, and with various other techniques, lead to a dynamic responsive application of the system as a whole.
“Non-compliant” training is, imho, a vital part of gaining such perspective, but it isn’t the first step. If one asks the master of a school about the system he or she teaches, the master will likely (and imho appropriately) discuss the defining system of the school. If asked to demonstrate the system, such a demonstration will likely be in a context that reveals (rather than conceals) some notable elements of the system - and thus be with “compliant” sparring partners.
None of that is an indicator that the school’s system is unable to effectively overcome “non-compliant” adversaries.
Just mtc.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Nov 26, 2018 15:33:13 GMT
Over the roughly 30 years I’ve studied martial arts, I can offer the following as one person’s experience and perspective. I would begin by stating that, imho, “non-compliance” training (to use the OP language) is a crucial part of MA training in any style. Having stated my agreement with the concept, I would respectfully disagree with the implication that many MA schools and systems fail to engage in such training. I have studied a number of MA styles, including Wing Chun. Most schools I have attended used “compliant” training to learn techniques, build muscle memory, increase strength, balance and stamina, and develop an understanding of various techniques and strategies. Most schools I attended were cognizant that their system was exactly that - a system. As a system, it would have strengths and weaknesses, advantages and vulnerabilities. Most schools also acknowledged that their system was intended primarily or historically to excel in a given purpose and context, such as sporting competition, rules regulated fighting, “street” fighting, self defense, military engagement, etc. As such, the master of the school would seek to develop a broad range of abilities in a student, based on the abilities and resources of the student (including availability of training time), and help them develop toward the goals of the program. Most schools I attended incorporated “non-compliant” training in a very substantial way. Doing so indeed helped develop the student in many ways. As for the Wing Chun example, my opinion is that, like all MA, the system was developed for certain purposes in a particular context. The few schools I am closely familiar with (in the US) will often incorporate non-traditional elements to deal with common situations outside of the historical context. The schools will typically distinguish such elements from the traditional curriculum, and give close explanation regarding the integration of such techniques into the traditional system. Like any technique, the rolling punch is a method intended for a particular set of situations. It a very effective technique if used skillfully in the appropriate circumstances. Also like any technique, it must initially be learned by the student in its intended context. Only study, training, practice, and experience will permit the student to master the technique and it’s application, and with various other techniques, lead to a dynamic responsive application of the system as a whole. “Non-compliant” training is, imho, a vital part of gaining such perspective, but it isn’t the first step. If one asks the master of a school about the system he or she teaches, the master will likely (and imho appropriately) discuss the defining system of the school. If asked to demonstrate the system, such a demonstration will likely be in a context that reveals (rather than conceals) some notable elements of the system - and thus be with “compliant” sparring partners. None of that is an indicator that the school’s system is unable to effectively overcome “non-compliant” adversaries. Just mtc. I felt bad about criticizing Wing Chun when writing this, I didn't want to come off as biased on Asian or unarmed martial arts when I'm not an authority on those martial arts. I just picked it to illustrate because most people know what a rolling punch looks like and I've seen some demonstrations where the rolling punch struggled to preform the way you usually see it against say an American boxer. That being said, I'm sure the technique still has its place and I could find similar techniques to critique in all systems including my favorite like Polish Saber. In fact, I think Polish Saber practicioners need to seriously think about how little distance and reach gets used compared to other systems.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 26, 2018 15:41:12 GMT
Or the lack of hand protection. A cut to the chest can lead to swollen knuckles quite easily
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Post by wlewisiii on Nov 26, 2018 20:06:16 GMT
I'm sure I'd drive any properly trained saber person nuts with my saber & buckler (practicing much of classic sword and buckler but using a saber and it's blocks and cuts) because I have them both to hand. If I'd had my waster sooner, I'd probably have just exercised more of a pure sword and buckler. I just wish I didn't live so far out in the boondocks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2018 21:54:04 GMT
A point if I might raise such, a strict compliance is little more than what sport/Olympic fencing is with a strict list of rules. I was shaking my head in somewhat disbelief until reading "I would begin by stating that, imho, “non-compliance” training (to use the OP language) is a crucial part of MA training in any style."
Indeed,Silver and others write of the unskilled and certainly all include some mention of grappling and wrestling.
I'm also curious of the rapier play mention as certainly Bolognese, including Capo Ferro regard cutting and Meyer more sidesword than Ferro's rapier a few decades later but not entirely thrust centric. I'm rambling a bit but I do wonder if your rapier tutors are SCA guys. I read of many (and see it a good bit as well) going at rapier as one might use a fencing foil with more wrist than anything else. In the same vein approaching an opponent as if confined to a lane.
Anyway, I can see the merits of compliance for a study group but in any other context, it's pretty much anything goes.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 26, 2018 23:20:32 GMT
A point if I might raise such, a strict compliance is little more than what sport/Olympic fencing is with a strict list of rules. I was shaking my head in somewhat disbelief until reading "I would begin by stating that, imho, “non-compliance” training (to use the OP language) is a crucial part of MA training in any style." Indeed,Silver and others write of the unskilled and certainly all include some mention of grappling and wrestling. I'm also curious of the rapier play mention as certainly Bolognese, including Capo Ferro regard cutting and Meyer more sidesword than Ferro's rapier a few decades later but not entirely thrust centric. I'm rambling a bit but I do wonder if your rapier tutors are SCA guys. I read of many (and see it a good bit as well) going at rapier as one might use a fencing foil with more wrist than anything else. In the same vein approaching an opponent as if confined to a lane. Anyway, I can see the merits of compliance for a study group but in any other context, it's pretty much anything goes. My rapier teacher teaches within a Hema club, but is a member of the SCA. I'm not sure which treatise it's out of, but I don't think it's Capo Ferro. In the small amount of cutting I've done in rapier practice it's been mostly single sword, and if used within rapier and dagger usually draw, tip, or push cuts. I wouldn't say at least what I've seen is like sport fencing, at least not in my own experience however anecdotal that may be.
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Post by ambulocetus on Dec 31, 2018 15:38:49 GMT
This reminds me of an old saying in Karate, "a black belt is rarely injured by another black belt, he is usually injured by a white belt because they sometimes move unpredictably." There was a story told in my first Dojo that one day the Kenjutsu teacher was sparring with one of his senior students when he twisted his ankle and dropped to one knee in pain. He looked up and his student was halfway across the room, having jumped back immediately. The teacher asked him "what are you doing way over there?" and the student replied "I've never seen a move like that before, and I didn't want any part of it."
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Post by Richard Arias on Jan 17, 2019 1:03:11 GMT
Something I think about a lot when practicing historical martial arts is compliance. To be clear, by compliance I mean when one's opponent acts in a way that is condusive to how you're taught to fight. For example, take two people who have been trained in rapier. They both have the expectation that a fight between will play out in some form of lunging thrusts, efficient wrist parries, quick ripostes and the use of significant distance between the fighters given the long blades. That would be an example of compliance. But if one duelist decides to flip his rapier around, hold the blade, and swing the hilt at his opponent like some bizarre maul, the fight loses compliance. Obviously using a rapier like that is a terrible idea, but the efect it has is that the guy using his rapier the way he's supposed to suddenly has less specific training that allows him to engage this new threat. Even though he will probably win easily, it's not because he was trained on how to face a murder stroke from a rapier. This concept gets important when you consider many martial artists always train with compliant opponents and therefore don't know how their techniques and fighting theories hold up when pitted against different weapons and style. You know that fancy machine gun speed close quarter fighting you see in Wing Chun? Turns out, that only really works if your opponent engages you in the same manner at the same distance. If your opponent is instead keeping their distance and throwing blows or grappling when you close, it suddenly doesn't work as well. I'm not trying to hate on Wing Chun or anything, in fact, I think ALL martial arts suffer from this to some degree. They develop fighting theory off the notion their opponent will be similarly armed and trained. Therefore, I think it's a good idea to take martial arts out of their normal context more often to see how they preform without compliance. This can be a small change of context like a Polish Sabre practitioner fighting a French Sabre practitioner, or it could be a massive context change like take a small sword against a zweihander. Until we try martial arts without compliance, we seriously lack knowledge on how styles can and cant defend against one another. Also consider that in historical battles, soldiers would often encounter opponents from other countries who had been trained to use their weapons differently, and possibly given entirely different weapons. A 15th century European Knight would not find a compliant opponent in a 15th century Ottoman Janissary. Therefore, if a longsword fencer only fights other longsword fencers, he or she will miss out on crucial historical context on how that weapon would react to a opponent with a kilij and sheild. So in closing, when learning a martial art, keep compliance in mind and try and make sure that something you think works well or doesn't work well within that art isn't just a byproduct of fighting an opponent doing the same things as you. Well I can say after 5 years in Wing Chun (6 different schools 5 different branches of the Ip man line during that time. Last 2 in the Ip Ching branch) and Finally getting my Instructor grade as a Sihing I can say a few things here. 1 the wing chun your talking about seeing is from movies or demos where the attacks are stimulated and again are closer to movie choreographed. This what your talking about?... Its demo work. Having crossed hands with Shotokan in My Wing Tsun days I can tell you that center line hits work well because the distance of most martial arts is touching distance weather its legs or feet. Now WC or WT its short to medium range and not long bridge like Karate or Savate ex. But like WT and WC core concept its about seeking and sinking the bridge contact depending on who you are. Same when my first Ip ching branch school in 2016 was also a Thai Boxing School. And against that kind of grappling and range WC worked well. In my Shotokan and Thai matches the first few bouts went well, but once people see it they can work around it... But that is sparring in a real scenario for a beginner if you rattle off wing chun straight punches and long bridge turn punches until you figure something better or your opponent falls is always better than no response. But chain punching is a beginner move really designed to teach you the concept of cycling your hands. ( chi sau is not sparring and sparring isnt chi sau... But notice sifu fongs cycle work much like fencing because chi sau is hand fencing) Kali Boxing and Western Boxing operate on simular concept but chose different approaches and tools to work then. Wing Chun has Chin na (grappling) wing chun being "anti grapple" means that our hand bridges and cycles often make it hard for grapples to happen. Chi Sau is a grapple struggle if you think about it. The first section of the wood dummy form has a neck grab grapple in it. (1:27-30 is the chin na from dummy section 1) Wing Chun isn't exactly a style more a system. Made to build an auto pilot and trained responses. My old Sifu who was a mantis guy at his start called it "plugging leaks" and chi sau is that crucible of hand fencing chess to take into free sparring.... But to many schools stop at Chi Sau. Its actually easier to fight people with No wing chuh if your talking about a going in cold engagement. I can just play whats there like a fencer or grappler. In a Street fight anything goes and I can chose (as I have in the past) to just cut loose with punches, elbows and knees before somone is even "ready". Same could be said for Kali or Karate you name it. When your trained and have a frame reference and reflex you have higher odds than someone who is expecting none of whatever techniques and concepts in your tool box. My current studio I train and I teach in also does Catch Wrestling, and Savate. Wing Chun is a great building block for your tool box. But like any art people really like it and believe it is the worlds best. The "Machine gun Fist" and "Sawed off Shotgun of Chinese Martial Arts" are phrases used in Wing Tsun the branch from the first clip. They really sell the Branch. But I am currently making plans to train and Teach at an FMA school to develop my dirty boxing with Kali Boxing. But wing chun is the base. But we also share space with a HEMA school and I see concept similarity rather than difference. Yeah sure you can go style vs style and monkey wrench. But in self defense most any art has same success chances in a real scenario if proper self defense training is given. It all comes down to scenario and practitioner.
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Post by markus313 on Jan 17, 2019 15:16:59 GMT
After 25 years in ma (many of those with quite a bit of WT in it) and living as a normal citizen I must say you don`t need any ma at all to deal with even the most non-compliant fellows. Having worked 13 years as a bouncer I`d say you need all of the skills above (dealing with non-compliance without fighting) and a lot of mixed ma skills for the “fighting” part of dealing with “non-compliant” fellows (WT offers a lot in the fighting department, and misses a lot, too – just like boxing, wrestling etc. is missing a lot, too, and even mma).
There are no refs on the street, what should make you to be a judge.
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Post by maewyn on Jan 17, 2019 16:25:46 GMT
Ricky where are you teaching? Do you have any videos yourself?I've been looking and cant find anything. Maybe you could make a video demonstrating compliance and your idea at your next class?
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Post by Battodoka on Jan 17, 2019 18:54:41 GMT
Something I think about a lot when practicing historical martial arts is compliance. To be clear, by compliance I mean when one's opponent acts in a way that is condusive to how you're taught to fight. For example, take two people who have been trained in rapier. They both have the expectation that a fight between will play out in some form of lunging thrusts, efficient wrist parries, quick ripostes and the use of significant distance between the fighters given the long blades. That would be an example of compliance. But if one duelist decides to flip his rapier around, hold the blade, and swing the hilt at his opponent like some bizarre maul, the fight loses compliance. Obviously using a rapier like that is a terrible idea, but the efect it has is that the guy using his rapier the way he's supposed to suddenly has less specific training that allows him to engage this new threat. Even though he will probably win easily, it's not because he was trained on how to face a murder stroke from a rapier. This concept gets important when you consider many martial artists always train with compliant opponents and therefore don't know how their techniques and fighting theories hold up when pitted against different weapons and style. You know that fancy machine gun speed close quarter fighting you see in Wing Chun? Turns out, that only really works if your opponent engages you in the same manner at the same distance. If your opponent is instead keeping their distance and throwing blows or grappling when you close, it suddenly doesn't work as well. I'm not trying to hate on Wing Chun or anything, in fact, I think ALL martial arts suffer from this to some degree. They develop fighting theory off the notion their opponent will be similarly armed and trained. Therefore, I think it's a good idea to take martial arts out of their normal context more often to see how they preform without compliance. This can be a small change of context like a Polish Sabre practitioner fighting a French Sabre practitioner, or it could be a massive context change like take a small sword against a zweihander. Until we try martial arts without compliance, we seriously lack knowledge on how styles can and cant defend against one another. Also consider that in historical battles, soldiers would often encounter opponents from other countries who had been trained to use their weapons differently, and possibly given entirely different weapons. A 15th century European Knight would not find a compliant opponent in a 15th century Ottoman Janissary. Therefore, if a longsword fencer only fights other longsword fencers, he or she will miss out on crucial historical context on how that weapon would react to a opponent with a kilij and sheild. So in closing, when learning a martial art, keep compliance in mind and try and make sure that something you think works well or doesn't work well within that art isn't just a byproduct of fighting an opponent doing the same things as you. Well I can say after 5 years in Wing Chun (6 different schools 5 different branches of the Ip man line during that time. Last 2 in the Ip Ching branch) and Finally getting my Instructor grade as a Sihing I can say a few things here. 1 the wing chun your talking about seeing is from movies or demos where the attacks are stimulated and again are closer to movie choreographed. This what your talking about?... Its demo work. Having crossed hands with Shotokan in My Wing Tsun days I can tell you that center line hits work well because the distance of most martial arts is touching distance weather its legs or feet. Now WC or WT its short to medium range and not long bridge like Karate or Savate ex. But like WT and WC core concept its about seeking and sinking the bridge contact depending on who you are. Same when my first Ip ching branch school in 2016 was also a Thai Boxing School. And against that kind of grappling and range WC worked well. In my Shotokan and Thai matches the first few bouts went well, but once people see it they can work around it... But that is sparring in a real scenario for a beginner if you rattle off wing chun straight punches and long bridge turn punches until you figure something better or your opponent falls is always better than no response. But chain punching is a beginner move really designed to teach you the concept of cycling your hands. ( chi sau is not sparring and sparring isnt chi sau... But notice sifu fongs cycle work much like fencing because chi sau is hand fencing) Kali Boxing and Western Boxing operate on simular concept but chose different approaches and tools to work then. Wing Chun has Chin na (grappling) wing chun being "anti grapple" means that our hand bridges and cycles often make it hard for grapples to happen. Chi Sau is a grapple struggle if you think about it. The first section of the wood dummy form has a neck grab grapple in it. (1:27-30 is the chin na from dummy section 1) Wing Chun isn't exactly a style more a system. Made to build an auto pilot and trained responses. My old Sifu who was a mantis guy at his start called it "plugging leaks" and chi sau is that crucible of hand fencing chess to take into free sparring.... But to many schools stop at Chi Sau. Its actually easier to fight people with No wing chuh if your talking about a going in cold engagement. I can just play whats there like a fencer or grappler. In a Street fight anything goes and I can chose (as I have in the past) to just cut loose with punches, elbows and knees before somone is even "ready". Same could be said for Kali or Karate you name it. When your trained and have a frame reference and reflex you have higher odds than someone who is expecting none of whatever techniques and concepts in your tool box. My current studio I train and I teach in also does Catch Wrestling, and Savate. Wing Chun is a great building block for your tool box. But like any art people really like it and believe it is the worlds best. The "Machine gun Fist" and "Sawed off Shotgun of Chinese Martial Arts" are phrases used in Wing Tsun the branch from the first clip. They really sell the Branch. But I am currently making plans to train and Teach at an FMA school to develop my dirty boxing with Kali Boxing. But wing chun is the base. But we also share space with a HEMA school and I see concept similarity rather than difference. Yeah sure you can go style vs style and monkey wrench. But in self defense most any art has same success chances in a real scenario if proper self defense training is given. It all comes down to scenario and practitioner. Where do you train at Ricky? How long have you been training catch wrestling and Mauy Thai? If you're in San Jose I'd like to workout with you guys when I go up in that area and also do some sparring.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jan 18, 2019 4:17:10 GMT
Well I can say after 5 years in Wing Chun (6 different schools 5 different branches of the Ip man line during that time. Last 2 in the Ip Ching branch) and Finally getting my Instructor grade as a Sihing I can say a few things here. 1 the wing chun your talking about seeing is from movies or demos where the attacks are stimulated and again are closer to movie choreographed. This what your talking about?... Its demo work. Having crossed hands with Shotokan in My Wing Tsun days I can tell you that center line hits work well because the distance of most martial arts is touching distance weather its legs or feet. Now WC or WT its short to medium range and not long bridge like Karate or Savate ex. But like WT and WC core concept its about seeking and sinking the bridge contact depending on who you are. Same when my first Ip ching branch school in 2016 was also a Thai Boxing School. And against that kind of grappling and range WC worked well. In my Shotokan and Thai matches the first few bouts went well, but once people see it they can work around it... But that is sparring in a real scenario for a beginner if you rattle off wing chun straight punches and long bridge turn punches until you figure something better or your opponent falls is always better than no response. But chain punching is a beginner move really designed to teach you the concept of cycling your hands. ( chi sau is not sparring and sparring isnt chi sau... But notice sifu fongs cycle work much like fencing because chi sau is hand fencing) Kali Boxing and Western Boxing operate on simular concept but chose different approaches and tools to work then. Wing Chun has Chin na (grappling) wing chun being "anti grapple" means that our hand bridges and cycles often make it hard for grapples to happen. Chi Sau is a grapple struggle if you think about it. The first section of the wood dummy form has a neck grab grapple in it. (1:27-30 is the chin na from dummy section 1) Wing Chun isn't exactly a style more a system. Made to build an auto pilot and trained responses. My old Sifu who was a mantis guy at his start called it "plugging leaks" and chi sau is that crucible of hand fencing chess to take into free sparring.... But to many schools stop at Chi Sau. Its actually easier to fight people with No wing chuh if your talking about a going in cold engagement. I can just play whats there like a fencer or grappler. In a Street fight anything goes and I can chose (as I have in the past) to just cut loose with punches, elbows and knees before somone is even "ready". Same could be said for Kali or Karate you name it. When your trained and have a frame reference and reflex you have higher odds than someone who is expecting none of whatever techniques and concepts in your tool box. My current studio I train and I teach in also does Catch Wrestling, and Savate. Wing Chun is a great building block for your tool box. But like any art people really like it and believe it is the worlds best. The "Machine gun Fist" and "Sawed off Shotgun of Chinese Martial Arts" are phrases used in Wing Tsun the branch from the first clip. They really sell the Branch. But I am currently making plans to train and Teach at an FMA school to develop my dirty boxing with Kali Boxing. But wing chun is the base. But we also share space with a HEMA school and I see concept similarity rather than difference. Yeah sure you can go style vs style and monkey wrench. But in self defense most any art has same success chances in a real scenario if proper self defense training is given. It all comes down to scenario and practitioner. Where do you train at Ricky? How long have you been training catch wrestling and Mauy Thai? If you're in San Jose I'd like to workout with you guys when I go up in that area and also do some sparring. Sounds like fun! I’d like to join in too to see how my training in Shukokai Karate, Kempo Aikijujutsu, and Tomiki Ryu Aikido match up with Ricky’s CMA and Muay Thai practice. I’ve sparred with a few CMA’s/MMA’s in the past, but it’s been too long. I’m thinking of heading to the San Jose area soon, could be some serious fun.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jan 18, 2019 5:25:00 GMT
Well I can say after 5 years in Wing Chun (6 different schools 5 different branches of the Ip man line during that time. Last 2 in the Ip Ching branch) and Finally getting my Instructor grade as a Sihing I can say a few things here. 1 the wing chun your talking about seeing is from movies or demos where the attacks are stimulated and again are closer to movie choreographed. This what your talking about?... Its demo work. Having crossed hands with Shotokan in My Wing Tsun days I can tell you that center line hits work well because the distance of most martial arts is touching distance weather its legs or feet. Now WC or WT its short to medium range and not long bridge like Karate or Savate ex. But like WT and WC core concept its about seeking and sinking the bridge contact depending on who you are. Same when my first Ip ching branch school in 2016 was also a Thai Boxing School. And against that kind of grappling and range WC worked well. In my Shotokan and Thai matches the first few bouts went well, but once people see it they can work around it... But that is sparring in a real scenario for a beginner if you rattle off wing chun straight punches and long bridge turn punches until you figure something better or your opponent falls is always better than no response. But chain punching is a beginner move really designed to teach you the concept of cycling your hands. ( chi sau is not sparring and sparring isnt chi sau... But notice sifu fongs cycle work much like fencing because chi sau is hand fencing) Kali Boxing and Western Boxing operate on simular concept but chose different approaches and tools to work then. Wing Chun has Chin na (grappling) wing chun being "anti grapple" means that our hand bridges and cycles often make it hard for grapples to happen. Chi Sau is a grapple struggle if you think about it. The first section of the wood dummy form has a neck grab grapple in it. (1:27-30 is the chin na from dummy section 1) Wing Chun isn't exactly a style more a system. Made to build an auto pilot and trained responses. My old Sifu who was a mantis guy at his start called it "plugging leaks" and chi sau is that crucible of hand fencing chess to take into free sparring.... But to many schools stop at Chi Sau. Its actually easier to fight people with No wing chuh if your talking about a going in cold engagement. I can just play whats there like a fencer or grappler. In a Street fight anything goes and I can chose (as I have in the past) to just cut loose with punches, elbows and knees before somone is even "ready". Same could be said for Kali or Karate you name it. When your trained and have a frame reference and reflex you have higher odds than someone who is expecting none of whatever techniques and concepts in your tool box. My current studio I train and I teach in also does Catch Wrestling, and Savate. Wing Chun is a great building block for your tool box. But like any art people really like it and believe it is the worlds best. The "Machine gun Fist" and "Sawed off Shotgun of Chinese Martial Arts" are phrases used in Wing Tsun the branch from the first clip. They really sell the Branch. But I am currently making plans to train and Teach at an FMA school to develop my dirty boxing with Kali Boxing. But wing chun is the base. But we also share space with a HEMA school and I see concept similarity rather than difference. Yeah sure you can go style vs style and monkey wrench. But in self defense most any art has same success chances in a real scenario if proper self defense training is given. It all comes down to scenario and practitioner. Where do you train at Ricky? How long have you been training catch wrestling and Mauy Thai? If you're in San Jose I'd like to workout with you guys when I go up in that area and also do some sparring. Sensei, I acually moved to Phoenix almost 2 years ago. My teacher here is one of my best friends who is a Catch Wrestler and general martial arts nerd. But he is from a different Wing Chun branch, the Kwok Line. But he doesn't have a senior so I function as the Sihing (Sempai) and assistant on a part time basis. I watch a lot of Catch and Savate because my buddy teaches those after wing chun and I stick around until close and do my own thing. Dummy or weapons work ex. In San Jose I was under Sifu Garcia. He is a Thai Boxing coach and Wing Chun Sifu. One of his students might mix it up with you, but these days Thai Boxing was the bigger class. Even though he mixes a lot of Thai sport boxing drills into Wing Chun the two classes rarely mix. During my time there I was one of the only students to put on gear and mix it up a few rounds with the Thai Boxers. m.facebook.com/pages/Reys-Wing-Chun-and-Muay-Thai-Academy/161273727226901 9 months there I doubt Sifu would remember my name he Always called me "Bruce Leroy" because we used to talk old movies. If you cross hands with him be careful... He is much quicker than one might think 😏
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Post by Richard Arias on Jan 18, 2019 6:09:13 GMT
Where do you train at Ricky? How long have you been training catch wrestling and Mauy Thai? If you're in San Jose I'd like to workout with you guys when I go up in that area and also do some sparring. Sounds like fun! I’d like to join in too to see how my training in Shukokai Karate, Kempo Aikijujutsu, and Tomiki Ryu Aikido match up with Ricky’s CMA and Muay Thai practice. I’ve sparred with a few CMA’s/MMA’s in the past, but it’s been too long. I’m thinking of heading to the San Jose area soon, could be some serious fun. Sesnei, Im never the guy to beat. Probably never will be. I am a better coach than practitioner in both things I rank in and Teach. My disability slows me down to where Ill never be "high class". It has taken me 6 years to do what most do in 3 for wing chun And in the sword 10 years to Dan when most do it in maybe 3 for the sword But again this is why in my current move im looking to work at a gym that's open every day. So that if I can't cross hands I can work on myself physically. But honestly I have met to many highly skilled practitioners who shouldn't be teachers. So I am kinda okay with being the guy who can't do as much so im coaching. Maybe I might be a future world class students first coach some day.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jan 18, 2019 16:49:36 GMT
Sounds like fun! I’d like to join in too to see how my training in Shukokai Karate, Kempo Aikijujutsu, and Tomiki Ryu Aikido match up with Ricky’s CMA and Muay Thai practice. I’ve sparred with a few CMA’s/MMA’s in the past, but it’s been too long. I’m thinking of heading to the San Jose area soon, could be some serious fun. Sesnei, Im never the guy to beat. Probably never will be. I am a better coach than practitioner in both things I rank in and Teach. My disability slows me down to where Ill never be "high class". It has taken me 6 years to do what most do in 3 for wing chun And in the sword 10 years to Dan when most do it in maybe 3 for the sword But again this is why in my current move im looking to work at a gym that's open every day. So that if I can't cross hands I can work on myself physically. But honestly I have met to many highly skilled practitioners who shouldn't be teachers. So I am kinda okay with being the guy who can't do as much so im coaching. Maybe I might be a future world class students first coach some day. Richard Arias, it’s a shame you can’t meet up with us. Battodoka, I’ll send you a PM so we can meet up and spar.
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