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Post by leviathansteak on Oct 17, 2018 3:06:10 GMT
Don't know much about chinese swords but isnt it possible that the grip wrap decayed or was removed leaving only the plain wood behind?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 17, 2018 3:40:36 GMT
Don't know much about chinese swords but isnt it possible that the grip wrap decayed or was removed leaving only the plain wood behind? That's certainly a possibility but from what I've seen online, most that had grip wraps still retain them today, although some with significant decay for sure. It also seems that many grips that were intended to be wrapped were made purposefully thinner such that once the wrap is tied, the final product is flush with the fittings. Meanwhile, some examples appear to have wooden grips with no wrap that are already flush implying that they were intended to be plain. I'm not an expert of course, this is just postulation based on viewing online examples. Some swords saw more use than others, and more decay than others. For instance, many 18th and 19th century sword hilts had gilting or silver. However, many have had this property worn off. I'm not any kind of expert on Chinese swords, but I don't think it's too unreasonable to say that the grip wrap wore off. Than again, it could be that the examples you saw were on the very low end with no wrap ever applied due to time or cost constraints. But even on the very late examples of Chinese swords which seemed very poor quality I've only seen wrapped grips.
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Post by leviathansteak on Oct 17, 2018 3:56:38 GMT
Another possibility is that the wood can fall apart or get removed and subsequently be replaced after the service life of the sword, so the wood you see might not be original, therefore it might look flush with the fittings. Of course i might be talking out of my ass here.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 17, 2018 3:57:16 GMT
My impression is that quite possibly most Chinese swords that formerly had wrapped grips have lost their wrapping (where "most" is over half, but not even close to "almost all"). End-of-19th-century cavalry dao were originally wrapped, but most I see today have lost their original wrap. Fancier swords are more likely to have retained grip wrapping.
From a mix of looking at antiques and Ming and Qing art, wrappings were common, with probably more swords with wrapped grips than without. Horn and bone grips were, AFAICT, usually unwrapped, but wooden grips were usually wrapped. Ornamentally carved grips (included wooden ones) were usually unwrapped. Unwrapped wooden grips sometimes had very long ferrules at both ends of the grip and/or very large ornamental washers for the through-grip rivet. Metal-covered grips were usually unwrapped. Military dao were more likely to be wrapped than civilian dao.
Wraps appear to be common during the Song, but I haven't seen enough art to say whether "most". We have some surviving Han swords with traces of wrap, so it's an old practice.
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Post by pellius on Oct 17, 2018 23:58:39 GMT
I did a couple of wraps following Peter Dekker’s very nice tutorial. mandarinmansion.com/pdf/grip-wrapping.pdfThe only thing I did differently was to use rubber bands (rather than tape) to keep things in place early on. It wasn’t particularly technically difficult, but it was a little tedious and time consuming, and I had to do a few to kinda get a feel for how to get things to fit and finish reasonably well. Good quality leather worked much better than de-cored paracord, and was a lot nicer looking. None of my attempts came anywhere close to Peter’s excellent work, of course.
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Post by pellius on Oct 18, 2018 3:23:05 GMT
Thanks. I think the entire grip would need to be sized down to accommodate the wrap. I agree that the wrap should be flush in height with the ferrule and pommel cap. However, I suspect slimming only the ends of the grip would leave it too fat in the middle after it’s wrapped.
If I recall correctly, Peter would use paper or some other material between the wood and wrap to ensure a secure non-slip grip (similar to ray skin same on a katana). I may be mistaken, though. Obviously, the grip would need to be sized accordingly.
Even with the leather wrap, my project was just too fat to grip comfortably when I was finished. Also, I really needed to rough up the wood for the wrap to get a better purchase.
It sounds like you are considering having a custom dao made. If so, you can obviously have the grip made whatever size you want. You mentioned your dao would be expensive. For a top shelf kind of project, getting Peter to do the grip wrap would likely be worth the effort. I wouldn’t worry too much about transatlantic shipping. Just buy the insurance.
If you are having irreplaceable fittings custom made, maybe have the maker produce a blank set to the same dimensions for shipping abroad.
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Post by pellius on Oct 18, 2018 3:43:36 GMT
If you are modding a sword you already have, it may be worth it to have an entirely new wood grip core made. Then you can preserve the original untouched grip.
One of the Euro sword guys here on SBG can probably make a superior-fitting grip core for a reasonable price.
Do you know how the hilt of your sword is/will be assembled? I’m kinda guessing a nut with a cross pin, which would accommodate disassembly and wrapping the grip while dismounted.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 18, 2018 4:26:19 GMT
It isn't helped by replica grips often being thicker (unwrapped) than antique grips (wrapped).
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 18, 2018 6:40:14 GMT
There's a tubular rivet holding the grip to the tang. There might be a big nut under the pommel also holding the grip on. And of course the little decorative pommel nut holding the pommel on. The Beile Dao and the Liuyedao both have the tutbular rivet. Whether both or either have a second nut under the pommel is something you'll have to find out by removing the pommel.
The tubular rivet makes it a little tricky to remove and reinstall the hilt. It would also make it harder to file down the grip while keeping it on the sword. If there is a second nut, then it isn't a big deal, structurally speaking, to remove the tubular rivet and not replace it (maybe thread a lanyard through the hole).
Rectangular-section grips (like on the Beile Dao) are better on the small side. I find them uncomfortable if they're large. I suspect I'd want to do something to that Beile Dao grip.
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Post by Jayhawk on Oct 18, 2018 11:52:28 GMT
I used that guide several years ago. A good closeup is in this link: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/44771/updated-condor-dadao-wrapped-hiltThe dadao is a condor and had a too thin grip, IMHO, so the wrap helps immensely. If I had it to do over again I would have put something between the wrap and the hilt to simulate rayskin. As it is, it looks great and doesn't slip (and I cut with this sword...you have to cut with it because it's so much fun!). Anyway, I say give it a go. It took a few tries to get the pattern going and tight, but if I can do it anyone can. Eric
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 25, 2018 5:03:33 GMT
It's probably glued on. Two things that you could try: heat gun (lots of epoxies will soften somewhere in the temperature range of 120-200C) and lots of force.
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