pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 1, 2018 22:31:33 GMT
I am enjoying watching your progress.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 2, 2018 5:27:15 GMT
Pgandy: Then you better hold on. There is much more to come yet.
Pino: Thanks for posting the pictures. That's a great help. Nrs. 79 and 80 have the knuckle bow standing at 90 degrees to the guard plate. When I was wrapping up business yesterday I thought about having a look at my P1796 Officers. To see whether there is a connection there. Blade wise that is. My sabre has this typical chopping blade we know from the P1796 LC and the later M1811 Blucher sabre, though it is not as wide. This sabre was meant for business anyway. No frills or French froo froo Officers private buy niceties. Will come back to that later, after work. Another thing I seem to detect: The general sloppiness of the blade work. Wavy lines. Something I thought about when I still had my Austrian archive and many pictures to study. Compaired to French and German work I have the impression that Austrian blades, in general, do not have the finesse or crispness the others offer. My sabre has this sloppy thing going too. Well maybe it is just me. You refer to an Hungarian Officer as the source? Interesting idea for sure. Could be but maybe there is something to say about militia in the border areas with the Ottoman Empire too? I do not have any idea how things worked over there. I only know that a lot of patrolling went on. Tense situation. I say this because the blade does not have the Imperial Eagle etch which was quite standard on regulation Austrian blades. Another pointer for the Hungarian and/or militia idea?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 2, 2018 9:47:43 GMT
Update 3. So. One side is finished. The other side is already done to 180 grid. This is one trouble spot that is impossible to remove. You can clearly see it in the first picture. Near the end of the fuller. As you can see, more sanding of this long fissure will only open it up more. There is no black goo in there. It shows dark because of reflection of the light. Hold the sabre the other way and the dark spot disappears. Over all the results are not that bad. There are spots of pitting still that go too deep, so I leave these also in peace. What I learned so far: The steel is very, very tough. Also, the blade was practically untouched. Apart from some recent rust removal marks, nobody tried to ,, improve ''. Even a few old file marks were still present. I removed the recent stuff, but let everything else intact, including the general sloppy lines, as this is not a parade sabre, but this was meant to be a no nonsense tool of warfare. So, I tried to stay as close to what the sabre must have looked like in the eyes of the first owner. This concept of ,, letting be '' is not in the nature of Ulahn the Maniac, who likes everything to be just right and will do his upmost to restore stuff on blades that others screwed up. As there was really nothing to restore here, apart from the removal of some unsightlies, said Ulahn had to restrain himself not to straighten out stuff. This took considerable effort, expressed in lock jaw, hefty grinding of teeth and occasional howling. But the result is a sabre very close to the truth, like it was before. Ulahn promises he will vent his pent up maniacal drive on some other poor sabre in the near future. For now I will start side two. Have the newly polished side taped off already. Do not want scratches.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 2, 2018 15:36:15 GMT
The other side of the blade is now finished too. Took 7 hours straight just for the polish. Grids: 60-80-180 for cleaning. Oil polish: 180-240-400-fine valve cleaner compound and coarse-middle and fine steelwool. So, this week we'll do the hilt, the scabbard and make new liners. And a new washer. Already found a bunch of small screws for the mouth piece to turn ,,antique''.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 2, 2018 21:02:25 GMT
You always do a remarkable job on your restorations. A couple of questions related to some of the things you uncovered.
How were these and other swords of the period manufactured (briefly)? Forged? There are probably some YouTube videos of swords being manufactured somewhere, which I suppose I should search for. I only recall one, that of a presentation sword produced in WWII, which I think was given to Stalin. But I also gather that modern Indian-made swords are not produced under what we would consider factory conditions but rather small workshops. I imaging custom-made swords in other places are made like that, too, but the exact processes are mysteries.
However they were made, do, or did, the imperfections that you pointed out seriously affect the serviceability of the blade to the extent that they represent real (as opposed to imagined) weak spots in the blade and liable to break or bend in those places? I do note that you said it flexes nicely. I also imagine that those imperfections suggest that forging was how they were made.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 3, 2018 4:43:00 GMT
I think the video of the Weapon Edge factory shows how it was done in a general way, though minus the modern tools of course. All equipment driven by water wheels. L'Hoste has some remarks on the production in his book ,, Armes Blanches ''. A row of ,, Martinets '', the large water force driven hammers. Yes. Delamination was the principal worrie of the inspectors. In this case it looks like the metal bar was folded in half and then not hammered out enough, so the steel did not fuse together as one. There are cavities under the surface probably and such a blade would have never made it through inspection. I think this blade made it through inspection somehow, which suggests that what is obvious now, was concealed then and the internal faults were not serious enough for it to fail the tests. So, this blade may be unsightly now, but at one point it was still pretty well serviceable. There is no way a blade with the faults we see here in the open would have found a buyer, most certainly not an Army Officer. Maybe polishing and cleaning during its service life opened up the fissures close to the surface. How it really went we will never know, but an article on Deutsche Blankwaffen states that factory seconds were sold to unsuspecting clients. See also the Klingenthal directive that prohibited the practise of selling seconds to Army Officers. This blade may have been a local or Austrian - Hungarian production. How the situation was over there I do not know, but I am sure blades with faults like this showing, would have been rejected everywhere.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 3, 2018 9:07:47 GMT
It was probably made on a Monday.
I viewed a couple of videos on sword making, one being from Wilkinson in the 1950s, the other a one-man shop. Wilkinson had big machines for volume production, the other little machines. Apparently both started with bar stock, so the basic metal was produced further upstream, in a manner of speaking. The differed in the quenching agents but using molten lead was a surprise. But how much can you learn in a five or ten-minute video? At any rate, considerable experience and specialized equipment is necessary, the way they did it.
I expect the little shops in India and the traditional methods used in Japanese sword making were more similar to one another than to European and American, including one-man shops, production. The man in the one-man shop said he had a lot to learn about swords when he began making them instead of knives and other tools.
Would a large-scale producer such as Wilkinson and those in Solingen put their marks on the blades before or after inspection, meaning government inspection?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 3, 2018 14:10:45 GMT
Well, when I see the Weapon Edge video I see an in essence Euro style production system. Power hammers and work stations for grinding, quenching and polishing, etc. Could be British influence. Inspection stamps on the Continent at least were done after the tests. Solingen stamped the inspection stamp not only on the blades, but on hilt parts too. When a sabre needed work and needed to be taken apart, when it was put together again the work would be inspected again and the new peen stamped. If you see a German sabre with an inspection stamp on the peen you know that it was repaired at one time. The year stamp on the spine is the year the sabre was accepted by Army controllers and the stamp underneath that one was the large inspection stamp. The British side of the question, well, that is not my forte. I do the Continent mainly, but have to my chagrin a large hole in my knowledge concerning the way things were organised in the Austrian Empire. Hard to find anything. Even pictures of the more interesting stuff like the pallasch are hard to find. Compared to what is available on French and German stuff this is hardly worth mentioning. Very annoying. And then to know that most of the Solingen data was destroyed in WWII too.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 3, 2018 15:41:43 GMT
Update 4. Doing the scabbard. 80 grid from the roll folded over a paint stirring stick. Works like a dream. Everytime. 30 minutes to clean up the entire scabbard. Yeah. Way to go.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 5, 2018 13:33:50 GMT
Update 5. And approximately 10 hours of polishing. Still a lot of the old skin there, which is a good thing. Tomorrow the details. Liners, screws and fixing the hilt.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 6, 2018 12:03:50 GMT
Update 6. LINERS. So today we'll do a little woodworking. Nice and clean for a change. No oil and black goo. I make my liners from 1.5 mm birchwood triplex, stuff much used in the airplane model world. It comes thicker and thinner too, like 1 mm down to 0.5 mm. I find 1.5 mm to do the trick very well. I order it online from a model shop in 100x50 cm slabs, which translates to two to three scabbards per slab. It has no knots, no acid, I never had a rusty blade just yet, is easy to cut with a hobby knife too. Ideal. How I do it. Lay the blade on the wood so the wood sits right up to the guard. Meassure the length of the scabbard. That will be mostly like 1.5 to 2 cm longer than the blade. Mark that down on the wood. Now draw around the blade and make the tip a bit longer so the drawing touches the scabbard length mark. Enough left to fiddle with the mouth piece with full length liners. Cut along the lines. The liners fit without the blade, but with the blade inserted, so they are pushed to the side, the blade sticks. No problem. Lay the mouth piece on the liners and draw a little flap. There is not much room for a larger flap with this piece. Cut this out. Now the fit is much better, but the liners get pushed side ways. The blade goes in alright, but it takes too much force. That is because the liners are too wide and too thick at the top. See? There is no room for the mouth piece at all. First we have to round off all sharp edges and then thin the top to paper thin. With this birchwood triplex that is easy to do. Now the thin tops of the liners will fit between the scabbard wall and the mouth piece. Yup. Inserting this model mouth piece is a bit fiddly, but when done the blade goes in there with gusto and when the sabre is held upside down and shaken it will not drop out. Sheating the blade now ends with that satisfying ,, Clunk ''. Like you close the door of an old model Volvo. No rattles too. Cheers.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 6, 2018 13:26:13 GMT
Thanks for such a detailed description on the liners. I got my first steel scabbard recently and the liners are seated and hold the sword as you describe, I even feel resistance during that last little bit of travel when returning the blade. With sword seated the whole unit is as you describe, no rattles and I can hold inverted, it feels solid and “right”. The disappoint comes from edge retention on the blade. I had sharpened to shaving sharp and in three days that beautiful edge was reduced to paper cutting sharp and not the best at that. I could see that the edge at that time had expanded to about a quarter of a millimetre, and would probably continue to grow. It was very disappointing as I like the package. I think that I have a leather scabbard coming and hope that it fits although I think that save the issue of edge retention that I’d rather keep the steel scabbard. As a temporary fix I have placed masking tape over the edge which is not all that convenient from a user’s standpoint but on the last check it went through paper like it wasn’t there. I probably should have given it a shaving test but to tell the truth I am really getting short of hair. I wish that I knew how to “fix” the steel scabbard but I believe it’s the nature of the beast.
I got so tied up in my issues that I forget to say what a great job you did on the scabbard.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 7, 2018 4:21:05 GMT
Bad ass! I always love seeing your restored projects, brings such life to them and makes me glad knowing they won't rot away to nothing.
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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 7, 2018 5:34:16 GMT
This is epic work! I appreciate you taking the time to share with us your trade.
*starts making scabbard liners for his own swords*
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 7, 2018 10:02:11 GMT
Pgandy: Edge retention was a problem from day one the steel scabbards were introduced. Just last week I saw a picture of an antique copper scabbard with the mouth piece upper plate deeply cut. All I can say is that the only steel scabbard I know of that is any good was the Japanese Gunto scabbard which had a wood ,, box '' inside that completely encased the blade, but left some room for the edge and the tip so it would not touch the wood. Also the Japanese draw, sheat and carry the sword with the edge up so the blade always rests on the thick spine. Though I do not sharpen my sabres, I always sheet and draw the Japanese way. Slide the blade in and out resting on the spine. Jordan and bfoo2: Thanks for the complements!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 7, 2018 11:07:50 GMT
Update 7. Washers. If everything goes as planned, then tomorrow is ,, Presentation Day!''. But first we still have some detailing to do. So, it's ,, Washer time ''. The way I do this can be used to make both leather or felt washers. For leather ones I have some old 4 - 5 mm thick belts bought from the second hand $1 bin. Get an old belt of good quality leather though. Not the Chinese fluffy stuff. At the end of this post I will come back to leather washers. Get a bit of paper and draw a cross like this. I lay the ruler on the edge of the paper so I get 100 % straight 90 degrees crossing lines. This is important because you use them to set out the measurements you made of the ricasso. Here you see I set out the 34.5 mm width of the blade on both sides of the paper. And here the 9 mm of the spine and the 2 mm of the edge. So, now we have the section of the blade at the ricasso. We cut that out and also remove some excess paper. Do not cut off too much. Just so that there is enough left for the scabbard mouth piece upper plate to rest on. Now shove the bit of paper on the blade. This looks rather good. And sheat the sabre. Now you draw around the upper plate. And presto! Paper washer. With the outer line established you can now remove some more excess paper and glue it on a piece of felt. Does not have to be red, though it was the most common. I use bookbinders glue called Lumbeck glue because it stays soft and is easy to remove with water. Do not use wood glue. The washer will become rock solid and that you do not want to happen. Done. Now we need to press for at least 30 minutes and after pressing we have to let it dry completely, or else the paper will be too soft for cutting. IMPORTANT: cut of a bit of plasic shopping bag or bin liner to lay on top of the wet paper. If you don't the glue will come through the paper when under the press and the washer will stick for sure. Removal will be hard to do and surely destroy the paper pattern bit you need to cut! Mmmmh. Which book shall I use to press this thing? All of them of course! After the washer has dried you cut the blade section with the knife and I use these little siccors with the bend tip to cut the round outer lines. This round beaked little one works really well. When the cutting is done you can age the new felt a bit. Just slap on any dirty, greasy stuff and rub it in well. That should do the trick. Now we come back to the leather washers. First, cut the blade section a little bit smaller and the outer rim a bit larger. When done, wash off the paper and remove the top coat of the leather and round of the sides somewhat with old oily and used, dirty fine steel wool. This will age the leather in no time. Grease the ricasso and the guard a bit and shove the wet washer into place. Sheat the sabre and have it stand on the drag somewhere for the leather to dry. Now, when you draw the sabre the next morning you will see that the leather has shrunk a bit and will fit perfectly around the blade and also, that the scabbard made a nice imprint on the new washer, like you see on antique washers. The leather bulges a bit over the rim of the mouth piece too. Just like the real deal! Cheers.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 7, 2018 12:37:42 GMT
I realize it wouldn't be as much fun but have you ever had anything gilded or silver-plated? I would add nickel-plated but I doubt you're the kind of person who would do such a thing.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 7, 2018 13:30:51 GMT
Thanks for the washer making instructions. You had posted a detailed description in the past that I’ve since have failed to find. I remembered how you made the OD but for the life of me I couldn’t remember how you made the cut for the blade. I’ve cut this one bookmarked. Thanks again.
As for drawing from that steel scabbard, I had inverted it drawing with cutting edge upwards, a carryover from my katana days when I realized there was a problem. However that did little good. In recent days I’ve been drawing with the scabbard horizontal and the edge away from me. That “feels” the best but I don’t trust it and the tape remains in place.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 7, 2018 13:50:39 GMT
I electro plate myself if I can. Much fun! Gilding too, but more on picture frames. That is old school with gold sheet, squirrel hair brush and agate burnisher. Electro plate gilding on antique sabre hilts I do not at the moment. Too expensive in initial investment. I have an excellent jeweller from Usbekistan in walking distance who does hard gild plate for me at more than reasonable prices. I let him lose on this one for instance: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/55241/argentinian-m1910-officers-dress-swordand a couple of French Officers sabres. And a German IOD 89. As he is also a sabre enthousiast we have long discussions. He's cool and I am quite sure, the only jeweller in the world who did not went apesempr!ni on me when I entered his shop for the first time, carrying a real live sabre. His wife does not like me though. I think she p!ssed herself when that happened. I made the plating solution according to this video: years ago and it works very well. I even plate iron over iron. Just to see whether it can be done. The aim was to see if I could plate stainless over an old surplus blade. That worked. Nickel works too, but I do not like new nickel. It does not have the colour and sheen of old nickel, so I just go over it with silver. Much nicer than new nickel. As you can see here I can do lots of stuff. This is only part of my material. In the kitchen. Upstairs, in my workshop it is even worse.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 7, 2018 20:13:23 GMT
Goodness! I am impressed. I had forgotten about the Argentinian sword and that was recent. I do have a sword with a gilded hilt, genuine U.S. Army NCO sword, pretty sure it's 3rd Infantry issue (I live near Washington, D.C.). I'm afraid the gilding will come off but it hasn't so far. It's German made, naturally. I've never seen a sword with a silver hilt but they're probably common in places I don't go.
I wonder if any were made with Parkerized hilts or blades?
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