Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 8, 2018 4:16:37 GMT
Sabres I do not think so. But if you want to experiment:
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 8, 2018 16:05:09 GMT
I’ve done this and it is not hard to do. I did it at the kitchen sink and am sure the Parkerizing solution was by a different company and some of the details in the video I don’t remember, it’s been many a year. I would suggest, although not done in the video, to wear rubber gloves especially while degreasing and later handling of the metal. Not for your protection as much as keeping your finger prints off the metal.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 8, 2018 17:06:06 GMT
So. Here are the final results and some glamour shots of what probably should be called ,, An Austro- Hungarian Officers Sabre based on the M1798 Light Dragoon pallasch '', with the emphasis on Hungarian, as the standard Austrian M1798 was a pallasch, albeit for Troopers. What the regulation Austrian Officers model was is unknown in this instance, but looking at other models in the book ,, Pallasche der Habsburger Monarchy '' by Jiri Protiva, makes it clear that many Officers models were indeed also of the pallasch design. As it is unknown how far Austrian Officers could stray off the regulatory plantation, there is something in assuming, for now at least, that this sabre belonged to an Hungarian Officer, as the sabre design, generally speaking, is more appealing to the Hungarian taste than a straight up pallasch. Pun not intented. ( For some images of the pallasch see page 1 of this thread. I think image nr 80 is the closest ). We have to thank Pino for much of the research and all the pictures. Thank you pino and I hope you will find my summary satisfactory. This has been an interesting thread for me and I hope for you guys too and I thank you for all your positive comments. I would like to present the sabre in the way I always do.The old gal deserves this. So here we go. .....An Austro - Hungarian Officers Sabre based on the M1798 Light Dragoon Trooper Pallasch..... This sabre is indeed a battle sabre. It has heft and oozes authority. And it is longer than what it looks like in the pictures. As you can see, the delamination is almost invisible in this light. In daylight however the spots are more prominent. It is really a shame this has happened to the blade. Here are the numbers I copied from page 1: Length OA: 96.5 cm. Length sabre: 95.5 cm. Length blade: 84 cm. Length grip inside: 9.8 cm. Length grip outside: 11 cm. Blade width: 34.5 mm. Blade thickness: 9-6-4-2.5-2 mm. Hilt steel is about 3 mm thick, even more here and there. POB: 20 cm or 7.87". Weight OA: 1342 gram. Weight sabre: 723 gram. The blade reminds me very much of an Officers version of the British P1796 Light Cavalry sabre. It has that same ,, chopper '' style blade. Again, don't be deceived by the Officers label. This thing yearns to do battle. Here are some shots of the hilt. Up to 3 mm thick hilt steel. This steel is very hard by the way, much different from the later models where it is very soft. On the inside of the guard plate was still a lot of the original polish left. It is almost of a Katana blade quality. Like hard chrome. In reality it shows much more bright than here. A picture of the stamp like thingy on the ricasso. Is it a stamp? And the almost perfect fit of the new washer. No need to cut it larger. Pressing while the glue is wet will make it fit just like it should. I did not ,,antique '' it. Let the old gal have her new hat. Here, on this sabre I like it this way. The slotted hilt design was really ,, a thing '', rather like the Spadroon. Here are some examples. Anglo-American. French. And a very nice British variant. So. This is the end of the ride. Thank you all again for your support. What shall I do next? I have 3 Blücher Säbel and 2 Swedish sabres, the M1814 LC and HC, laying on the floor. Waiting to trip me.... I can hear them giggle.... Cheers. Notes. www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1800/entity_5689.htmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Empirewww.napolun.com/mirror/web2.airmail.net/napoleon/Austrian_cavalry.htmnapoleonistyka.atspace.com/Austrian_army.htmnapoleonistyka.atspace.com/Austrian_cavalry.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Bohemian_Dragoons_%28Count_Montecuccoli%27s%2
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 8, 2018 17:39:45 GMT
Can metal, steel at least, get harder or softer over time? I don't mean from bending or from being hammered but it was the first thing that popped into my mind when you said that one was of harder steel than later ones. I can't imagine that it does but that what I was wondering.
That's a wicked mace or flail in the last photo.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 8, 2018 18:44:05 GMT
3 BLUCHERS! Mein Gott! As a poor American who's never even seen one I can only imagine the glory of such steel.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 8, 2018 18:44:55 GMT
Also, very nice end to your saga. I very much like the sabre, it looks and sounds like a nice took for fighting in the hands of a soldier.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 8, 2018 20:43:42 GMT
Thanks for sharing. The sword looks better now, but then it received the Uhlan treatment. Your article was also educational.
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Post by berntk on Sept 9, 2018 12:15:25 GMT
Uhlan, I always read your renovation/ restauration articles with interest and pleasure. A lot of work, and a great result on a blade I didn't know.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 9, 2018 18:32:51 GMT
Thank you all for your comments.
Bluetrain: These simple old hilts were forged as far as I know. Newer hilts like the M1852 were cast I think. I do not think age is the factor here.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 10, 2018 13:46:58 GMT
I was thinking of the blades, not the other parts, but that they were made differently (forged, cast and stamped out of sheet steel) was not something that I had thought of and it's so obvious. Different materials, too, I suspect.
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Post by alfonzoh on Sept 13, 2018 6:51:37 GMT
Pgandy: Edge retention was a problem from day one the steel scabbards were introduced. Just last week I saw a picture of an antique copper scabbard with the mouth piece upper plate deeply cut. All I can say is that the only steel scabbard I know of that is any good was the Japanese Gunto scabbard which had a wood ,, box '' inside that completely encased the blade, but left some room for the edge and the tip so it would not touch the wood. Also the Japanese draw, sheat and carry the sword with the edge up so the blade always rests on the thick spine. Though I do not sharpen my sabres, I always sheet and draw the Japanese way. Slide the blade in and out resting on the spine. Jordan and bfoo2: Thanks for the complements!
Lovely saber restoration!
To the comment above, is there any way to build in an edge-retaining liner? Say, by sandwiching a sliver of wood between two liner slats that will make contact with the edge (or, if tight enough, prevent contact)?
I use birch veneer, myself, and am thinking of how best to attempt this.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 13, 2018 9:06:21 GMT
Although I didn't think any metal would lose any of its characteristics over time, allowing for storage conditions, I did come across a reference to some commando knives made by Camillus Cutlery that had handles made of some alloy material that tended to harden over time and would become brittle. But that was probably very unusual.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 13, 2018 14:13:34 GMT
Beautiful work, and the pictures for the scabbard liner restoration really make perfect sense. Awesome work sir!
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Post by pellius on Sept 14, 2018 12:58:04 GMT
Impressive work and great info. Thank you for sharing.
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Post by theophilus736 on Sept 15, 2018 1:35:14 GMT
This is an amazing thread. Thanks so much for the step by step.
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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 15, 2018 6:52:22 GMT
Lovely work, as usual. Thanks for sharing it with us!
Very educational (and the eye candy ain't bad either!)
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 15, 2018 9:57:58 GMT
Alfonso: The only way I can think of at the moment, is to replace the mouth piece with a kind of wooden Habaki that 1. fits the scabbard 2. fits the sabre. This would work as the Habaki on the Japanese Gunto. The Gunto had a wood blade casing inside the iron scabbard that left the edge and the tip free. The edge and tip never ever touched the wood. The Gunto habaki fitted perfectly into the wood casing, so the blade was locked into position. This was only possible because the blade rested on its spine. Today one would have to do a 3D laser scan of the mouth inside section of the scabbard and a laser scan of the sabre ricasso section. These scans would have to be translated into some program and the program fed to a 3D printer. As the sabre is carried with the edge down there would be too much strain on a wooden ,,Habaki'', so printing should be done with some super tough plastic.
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Post by alfonzoh on Sept 15, 2018 17:40:50 GMT
Alfonso: The only way I can think of at the moment, is to replace the mouth piece with a kind of wooden Habaki that 1. fits the scabbard 2. fits the sabre. This would work as the Habaki on the Japanese Gunto. The Gunto had a wood blade casing inside the iron scabbard that left the edge and the tip free. The edge and tip never ever touched the wood. The Gunto habaki fitted perfectly into the wood casing, so the blade was locked into position. This was only possible because the blade rested on its spine. Today one would have to do a 3D laser scan of the mouth inside section of the scabbard and a laser scan of the sabre ricasso section. These scans would have to be translated into some program and the program fed to a 3D printer. As the sabre is carried with the edge down there would be too much strain on a wooden ,,Habaki'', so printing should be done with some super tough plastic.
Thanks for considering this. Based on what you've said, it might be easier with swords where the throat/mouthpiece does virtually all of the retaining work (there are some late french swords where the metal scabbard's throat is pretty much the only part of the scabbard retaining/coming into contact with the blade). In such a case, if you could properly wood-line the throat, you would virtually protect the entire blade.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 15, 2018 20:04:13 GMT
The problem would be that the slightest movement of the blade in the scabbard would in due time wreck the extreem tight fit you need in the ricasso section. The blade with its weight would work like a kind of pendulum. I think the only way to avoid that movement is to support the spine. Liners only supporting the width of the blade will not hold it still. Vikings had the wood casing filled with oily wool. That might help to preserve the edge.
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Post by alfonzoh on Sept 15, 2018 23:18:38 GMT
The problem would be that the slightest movement of the blade in the scabbard would in due time wreck the extreem tight fit you need in the ricasso section. The blade with its weight would work like a kind of pendulum. I think the only way to avoid that movement is to support the spine. Liners only supporting the width of the blade will not hold it still. Vikings had the wood casing filled with oily wool. That might help to preserve the edge Food for thought! I will do some thinking and return with my first attempt at a solution taking the shimmying factor into account.
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