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Post by viece on Jul 12, 2018 20:42:36 GMT
Anyone had a scabbard made for a scabbard-less antique of any period? I'm considering doing it for one or two of my favorites. Just curious what people have done. Thanks for reading and posting your ideas.
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Post by viece on Jul 27, 2018 14:59:34 GMT
Well, ok then. I retract my thanks.
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Post by MOK on Jul 27, 2018 15:10:06 GMT
Looks like nobody here has. It's not something most people would do, to be honest. If an antique sword doesn't come with its original scabbard, most collectors are happy to just store/display it on its own, although I have known a few to use plain shirasaya style storage sheaths for safer keeping. I think for a lot of people a fully realized scabbard in the appropriate style edges into a sort of uncanny valley - it just feels too close to a potential "fake" for comfort. There's nothing wrong with the idea, as such, though! Just gotta make absolutely sure the materials are safe for steel (vegetable tanned leather, non-acidic wood) and that there are no harmful residues or hard, sharp bits that might scrape the blade left in the scabbard once it's done, and that it doesn't trap moisture. So, you know, the same as with scabbards for reproduction swords, just more so.
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Post by viece on Jul 27, 2018 15:22:45 GMT
Good points! I reinstate the retracted thanks, MOK.
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Post by viece on Jul 27, 2018 16:30:37 GMT
And I should clarify, I was not asking for "how do you make a fake antique scabbard to fool people." I just meant a sheath or scabbard for transport, storage, maybe display, maybe even wear around at an event... curious how people approached the issue of making it "match" or not -- similar metal on the fittings? Age the leather and fittings to blend better? Go for a reconstruction of a period one or just do your own interpretation?
But I do see what you mean, MOK, about the uncanny valley of proximity to fakery. I am not trying to fool anyone, just fully enjoy my antiques. But what if I sold the set, and then several steps down the line the modern part was being misrepresented as an original item? It's an interesting and worrying thought.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2018 16:56:39 GMT
Sorry, I'd seen this when it was new but had nothing to contribute so left it to someone else.
Most I've kept up with don't generally bother with scabbards, as MOK said. Conversely, I won't buy anything that doesn't have one already. I have one bare blade in my collection, but it was bought new as a custom and I'd originally intended to send it off for furniture but then my finances tanked. It now sits atop my entertainment center, out of reach of most folk. Same with an axe head I got as a gift from a member here years ago.
Actually, I just remembered I do have one antique without a scabbard, but it's a bayonet so I'm not sure it counts. That one sits atop my gun cabinet, at a height comparable to the entertainment center, where only I can reach it and it's not falling off easily.
There are tutorials around for making scabbards. It's pretty basic woodworking, with the caveat being (again, as MOK said) being sure you're using steel-safe materials.
Otherwise, a few places will do it for you, depending on the type of sword. Japanese swords are easy enough, Indo Persian slightly less so unless you're in Europe/UK, everything else is kind of a mixed bag.
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Post by MOK on Jul 27, 2018 17:34:02 GMT
And I should clarify, I was not asking for "how do you make a fake antique scabbard to fool people." I just meant a sheath or scabbard for transport, storage, maybe display, maybe even wear around at an event... curious how people approached the issue of making it "match" or not -- similar metal on the fittings? Age the leather and fittings to blend better? Go for a reconstruction of a period one or just do your own interpretation? But I do see what you mean, MOK, about the uncanny valley of proximity to fakery. I am not trying to fool anyone, just fully enjoy my antiques. But what if I sold the set, and then several steps down the line the modern part was being misrepresented as an original item? It's an interesting and worrying thought. Yeah, exactly! I think I might go for the same approach as paleontologists use when reconstructing partial fossilized skeletons - the fabricated parts (or, in this case, the sheath) are made to match the originals in form but are colored in an obviously artificial tone that separates them clearly from the fossil remains, a practice established after a famous 19th Century scandal involving the British Museum... So, personally, if I were to make a new sheath for an antique weapon, I would just make it look as unabashedly new as it actually is, and maybe include some small details that mark it as unmistakably modern on close inspection.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2018 18:42:08 GMT
And I should clarify, I was not asking for "how do you make a fake antique scabbard to fool people." I just meant a sheath or scabbard for transport, storage, maybe display, maybe even wear around at an event... curious how people approached the issue of making it "match" or not -- similar metal on the fittings? Age the leather and fittings to blend better? Go for a reconstruction of a period one or just do your own interpretation? But I do see what you mean, MOK, about the uncanny valley of proximity to fakery. I am not trying to fool anyone, just fully enjoy my antiques. But what if I sold the set, and then several steps down the line the modern part was being misrepresented as an original item? It's an interesting and worrying thought. Yeah, exactly! I think I might go for the same approach as paleontologists use when reconstructing partial fossilized skeletons - the fabricated parts (or, in this case, the sheath) are made to match the originals in form but are colored in an obviously artificial tone that separates them clearly from the fossil remains, a practice established after a famous 19th Century scandal involving the British Museum... So, personally, if I were to make a new sheath for an antique weapon, I would just make it look as unabashedly new as it actually is, and maybe include some small details that mark it as unmistakably modern on close inspection. Emojis everywhere. Stitched into the leather, etched into the plastic chape/drag if applicable...
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Post by MOK on Jul 27, 2018 19:00:12 GMT
Emojis everywhere. Stitched into the leather, etched into the plastic chape/drag if applicable... Thousands of tiny emojis stamped into the leather as textured fields! It wouldn't be any worse than the historical armor covered in "figs" (Renaissance Italian version of the middle finger).
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Post by viece on Jul 27, 2018 21:19:04 GMT
Emojis everywhere. Stitched into the leather, etched into the plastic chape/drag if applicable... Thousands of tiny emojis stamped into the leather as textured fields! It wouldn't be any worse than the historical armor covered in "figs" (Renaissance Italian version of the middle finger). Wait, is that true? The fig thing? Fantastic.
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Post by viece on Jul 27, 2018 21:26:48 GMT
And I should clarify, I was not asking for "how do you make a fake antique scabbard to fool people." I just meant a sheath or scabbard for transport, storage, maybe display, maybe even wear around at an event... curious how people approached the issue of making it "match" or not -- similar metal on the fittings? Age the leather and fittings to blend better? Go for a reconstruction of a period one or just do your own interpretation? But I do see what you mean, MOK, about the uncanny valley of proximity to fakery. I am not trying to fool anyone, just fully enjoy my antiques. But what if I sold the set, and then several steps down the line the modern part was being misrepresented as an original item? It's an interesting and worrying thought. Yeah, exactly! I think I might go for the same approach as paleontologists use when reconstructing partial fossilized skeletons - the fabricated parts (or, in this case, the sheath) are made to match the originals in form but are colored in an obviously artificial tone that separates them clearly from the fossil remains, a practice established after a famous 19th Century scandal involving the British Museum... So, personally, if I were to make a new sheath for an antique weapon, I would just make it look as unabashedly new as it actually is, and maybe include some small details that mark it as unmistakably modern on close inspection. MOK, that's a great analogy. I'm an archaeologist, not a paleontologist, but that's still close to home and really speaks to me. Another one that occurred to me is adaptive reuse and updating of historical buildings. For instance, a few months ago I was on vacation in Paris. My apartment was a block or two from the Cluny Museum. Unfortunately, it was closed, but I looked closely at the outside. They're building a very modern extension with all sorts of textured metal that presents an interesting homage to the 1,000-year-old stone right next to it. At first I was horrified, thinking "what are they doing to this lovely medieval (and older) building?" But then I got comfortable with it and realized I preferred it to fake Ye Olde Medieval Architecture on modern construction. Better to have cues and themes that draw the parts together but let them clearly be 1,000 years apart. Another museum that comes to mind is in Minneapolis, MN, USA, where some stone ruins of a historical mill were not restored per se but were left in place and then modern construction was placed in and around it, so you see modern steel and glass growing out of rough, ruined walls. It links past and present beautifully with no artifice.
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Post by MOK on Jul 27, 2018 21:42:20 GMT
Thousands of tiny emojis stamped into the leather as textured fields! It wouldn't be any worse than the historical armor covered in "figs" (Renaissance Italian version of the middle finger). Wait, is that true? The fig thing? Fantastic. Grown men have always been twelve years old inside.
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Post by viece on Jul 27, 2018 21:58:11 GMT
That's wonderful, thanks for posting the images.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jul 31, 2018 19:36:41 GMT
I just collect Japanese stuff and personally I would not commission a modern made koshirae (fittings & scabbard). I know a lot of people do that but on my personal view it is an investment that you will not get back financially. It will just always be a modern assembled koshirae that has 0 historical value. If a sword would have an existing koshirae either old or modern made I would of course accept it and appreciate it for what it is.
I know that many collectors want to have their Japanese swords with koshirae so it is common to have modern koshirae made to a sword.
Back when I had some Indian & African stuff that came without scabbards or with broken ones I really thought I'd made scabbards for them as they were really low quality antiques. Unfortunately I am bad at woodworking and lack space & tools so I never tried doing them...
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