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Post by bluewizard on Jul 11, 2018 23:21:25 GMT
Good Day, I am looking for assistance in identifying a French sword which I suspect is an Artillery or Calvary sword, circa mid 1800's. I have posted pics less the scabbard which has some type of rough dark covering which eludes me currently. Other pics available if need be. Thanks in advance.
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Post by Pino on Jul 12, 2018 1:47:36 GMT
Superbe sword!
It's a light cavalry officer sword model of Year XI; made in Germany by P. Knetch with a damascus pattern blade = private purchase sword for a rather wealthy officer. Most likely end of Empire or 2nd Restauration (c.1820-1840s). The scabbard form and blade point might also give more clues to identify further its timeline.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 12, 2018 2:43:40 GMT
Good Day, I am looking for assistance in identifying a French sword which I suspect is an Artillery or Calvary sword, circa mid 1800's. I have posted pics less the scabbard which has some type of rough dark covering which eludes me currently. Other pics available if need be. Thanks in advance. Agree with Pino. Particular style adopted 1812 for lancers. Generically, available for light cavalry horse arty officers to 1830s Looks restoration period. Is the blade clipped?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 14:22:29 GMT
I forgot to look at Bezdek while at the desk this morning but as mentioned before, there are two generations of Peter Knecht, with the jr company more of a consortium of goods. One will find the later Peter Knecht swords in quite a variety, while the senior, earlier P.Knecht stuff more unique and elaborate. Also, that the inscription is in French, which might lend to it having been commissioned/ordered/cataloged during the French occupation of Solingen. I suppose it could have as easily been marketed and inscribed in the France. I am curious both of the scabbard but more so of the blade spine and whether there is any text etched there. Folded blades were not just a rebirth in the 19th century and found on blades in the 18th century. The heavy etching on this one could more easily explained as later but I am finding more and more examples of deep etching early in the 19th century. Indeed, just like the folded blades, an art never really lost but just rarely applied to large military pieces. It really does seem to be carved/graved as well as etched. My smallsword shard from the 18th century shows some of this type of metal layering of steels.
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Post by bluewizard on Jul 12, 2018 15:20:12 GMT
Good Day, thanks for for the replies. I have posted additional pics as requested in hopes that they prove useful. Regards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 15:52:11 GMT
I dunno but the Pallas Athena homage seems earlier to me too but it could well be an earlier blade fitted later in life, or indeed be entirely later. I was looking to see if it might read something on the spine but the blade quality is already written on one side. The clipped point, well, again debatable as to time but certainly another earlier trait.
The scabbard sturdier than I expected.
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Post by Pino on Jul 12, 2018 16:16:14 GMT
That kind of yelman was out of fashion after the war so I'm more confortable saying c.1810-1830s. The scabbard however may be from another model; there's something about the drag that doesn't fit with the rest.
Again, magnificent piece!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 16:26:44 GMT
I'm being lazy on going to the shelf but here is Dellar on the Knecht dates.
FWIW
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Post by bluewizard on Jul 12, 2018 22:17:04 GMT
Good Day,
Many thanks for the info. I will keep digging as much as possible in order to further unravel the history of this sword. I notice there is a forum on sword repair which includes some methods of cleaning (rust removal, etc). What is the advice on attempting to clean such a sword, or is it best to leave it as it and just wipe with a soft cloth ? I understand there are different camps on the subject and I would value your opinion.
Thanks again for the help and I will pursue the information you provided.
Regards
Joe
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 22:21:51 GMT
Regarding cleaning and conservation or restoration; I can only express a concern that any gilding left can disappear in a second when polishing or using solvents.
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Post by Svadilfari on Jul 13, 2018 4:11:09 GMT
First rule with antiques - "When in doubt..do nothing"
Second rule - "If you don't know *exactly* what you're doing..DEFINITELY do nothing"
That sword looks in pretty good condition as it is, so the best thing you can do is give the blade a *light* oiling.
Better, close up pics of the scabbard way help identification of the "covering"
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 13, 2018 7:30:58 GMT
Doesn't look bad at all, in terms of dirtiness. Just use a light cover of oil to keep rust away from the blade and use appropriate substance on the hilt.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Jul 13, 2018 7:35:14 GMT
I agree, if it was in rough shape I'd say go for it, but this is a stellar piece for its age. Definitely worth preserving or letting a professional do the touch ups.
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Post by bluewizard on Jul 13, 2018 17:16:42 GMT
Good Day, Thanks again for the advice. A very "light" oiling it is then. in regards to the "covering", the scabbard is coated with some dark substance which has, I guess over time, rubbed off is some parts. I have attached some close up pics which may help. Again, and I cannot say this enough..thanks for the assistance and the advice. Regards Joe
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Post by elbrittania39 on Jul 13, 2018 17:33:31 GMT
I dont know about the French in particular, but painting metal scabbards black was very common. It was a nice way to keep out rust and (I imagine at least) annoying reflections glinting off all that polished metal. I would guess this one was made without a coating, then painted by its original owner, and has now partially rubbed off over time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 17:42:11 GMT
Will a magnet stick to the scabbard?
From what I see, the fit of the scabbard leans to it belonging to the sword.
The sword could be somewhat restored professionally in re-gilding those surfaces. If it is (and I suspect so) an iron scabbard, it could be stripped and gilded. Are/is there what appears to be wooden liners inside the scabbard?
I would not even rub the blade with oil at this point. Just dust for now. Keep it dry. With a very soft cloth lightly brush off any loose dirt from the grip and other metal parts of the hilt.
The thing about home restoration is that practice makes perfect. Please don't attempt to practice this with this sword. I won't (try not to) further express my concern in going extremely careful in dealing with this. Please, nothing stronger than alcohol on the blade. Avoid oils on any of the gilded surfaces. Go so far as to wearing clean soft white cotton gloves when handling the sword. That may seem extreme but you can see what has been worn off and what has not.
Others may and will offer more suggestions and any's mileage is going to vary.
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Post by bluewizard on Jul 13, 2018 22:34:42 GMT
Hello,
A magnet does stick to the scabbard and I see what looks like two very thin pieces of wood (liners ?) in the scabbard. I think, for now, I will stick with using a dry cloth and will go with the gloves when handling. Not sure when I can consult with a professional in person, but doing it this way should ensure I do not cause any damage.
In the meantime, I will try and identify the etching on the blade and see what I can dig up.
Joe
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 23:29:42 GMT
The figure/bust shown on the blade is most likely just of Pallas Athena (Goddess of War). The rest of it really just martial decoration. The panoply of arms embraces all services. To me, as well , the laurel wreath more of an imperial note of the first empire. If I seem to be dwelling on early, the iron scabbard another clue. Brass was in much greater supply after the Napoleonic War era.
As the blade has remained virtually rust free and there is some gilding left, I would use no oil at all. Insertion and withdrawal of the blade with the edge up to scuff the side as little as possible (vs if it were an old cracking leather scabbard).
Nice sword.
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Post by richardr on Aug 27, 2021 14:34:39 GMT
Hi Joe,
In connection with my research on the history of pattern blades, I came across your forum request of 13 July 2018 concerning a Peter Knecht sabre.
The sabre you presented is very interesting for my work as an example. For this reason I would like to ask you if I may use the pictures of this sabre inserted in the forum for my publication. Of course I will quote the corresponding source.
Would you perhaps have photos in a larger resolution that you could send me?
I would be very grateful for your help.
Kind regards,
Richard
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Post by calien on Sept 4, 2021 13:12:23 GMT
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