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Post by randomnobody on May 29, 2018 20:03:37 GMT
I didn't know there was an actual record of the weapons used. That alone is interesting in itself. That one happened to be 3 shaku (35.7 inches, 90.9cm) is pretty impressive. Seems the most common (three or four listed; more if you're willing to go up or down two measly sun) length was not much shorter at 2 shaku 9 sun (34.6 inches, 87.9cm) which is again impressive. Smallest katana (as opposed to wakizashi or yari, also listed), for which two entries tie, is even pretty small versus the "typical" antique example at a meager 2 shaku (23.86 inches, 60.6cm).
Some of those guys had swords a full ten inches, and more, (25.4cm) longer than others.
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on May 29, 2018 21:07:43 GMT
I have practiced with a group in Tucson, AZ who train in Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu. It is a koryu art that was founded in 1640, which was 62 years before the execution of Lord Kira by the 47 ronin. Sekiguchi ShinShin Ryu uses 2.8 shaku katanas (33.5 inches) as their standard length, with some practitioners using 36" blades.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jun 1, 2018 4:10:53 GMT
Really cool to see that there's a record of the blades collected from that moment. What's interesting is when you break down this data statistically, we see: (Using 1 shaku=11.93 in and 1 sun=1.193 in) sample size: n=31 (2 omitted for no data) mean=30.556 in., standard deviation=3.9 in., median=32.21 in. (chart below for easier viewing)
2 shaku (23.86 in) n=3 2 shaku 1 sun (25.053 in.) n=2 (also several "wakizashi" of this length) 2 shaku 2 sun (26.246 in.) n=3 2 shaku 4 sun (28.632 in.) n=5 (also one "wakizashi" of this length) 2 shaku 6 sun (31.018 in.) n=2 2 shaku 7 sun (32.211 in.) n=2 2 shaku 8 sun (33.404 in.) n=7 2 shaku 9 sun (34.597 in.) n=6 3 shaku (35.79 in.) n=1
So it seems that katana length was across the board and was more tailored to user preference. Hence how a couple samurai had "wakizashi" with recorded lengths not too much smaller than their main katana. Important to note is the large standard deviation for this sample (roughly 4 in.) definitely suggests blade length being tailored to user preference. It would seem that the notion of Edo Period standardization is not really applicable here. This sample is also interesting since a lot of antiques I've seen haven't strayed too much beyond 30 in. and many seem to fall in the 25.5-29 in. range.
This further reinforces the idea that many katana lengths recorded late Edo were definitely trimmed down from their earlier length and that the length for a 'war sword' in Japan likely was of comparable length to the hand and a half swords seen in Europe. This also raises some interesting questions for that pesky 'longsword vs. katana' debate where a default argument is 'longsword has reach and therefore wins' given that half the katana represented here are of similar length to a longsword. Really raises interesting questions about how the concept of a '28 inch blade +/- 2 in.' has skewed ideas about kenjutsu and the Japanese sword in general. That's all if this sample is representative. Really thought provoking information.
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 3, 2020 21:45:45 GMT
Really cool to see that there's a record of the blades collected from that moment. What's interesting is when you break down this data statistically, we see: (Using 1 shaku=11.93 in and 1 sun=1.193 in) sample size: n=31 (2 omitted for no data) mean=30.556 in., standard deviation=3.9 in., median=32.21 in. (chart below for easier viewing)
2 shaku (23.86 in) n=3 2 shaku 1 sun (25.053 in.) n=2 (also several "wakizashi" of this length) 2 shaku 2 sun (26.246 in.) n=3 2 shaku 4 sun (28.632 in.) n=5 (also one "wakizashi" of this length) 2 shaku 6 sun (31.018 in.) n=2 2 shaku 7 sun (32.211 in.) n=2 2 shaku 8 sun (33.404 in.) n=7 2 shaku 9 sun (34.597 in.) n=6 3 shaku (35.79 in.) n=1
So it seems that katana length was across the board and was more tailored to user preference. Hence how a couple samurai had "wakizashi" with recorded lengths not too much smaller than their main katana. Important to note is the large standard deviation for this sample (roughly 4 in.) definitely suggests blade length being tailored to user preference. It would seem that the notion of Edo Period standardization is not really applicable here. This sample is also interesting since a lot of antiques I've seen haven't strayed too much beyond 30 in. and many seem to fall in the 25.5-29 in. range.
This further reinforces the idea that many katana lengths recorded late Edo were definitely trimmed down from their earlier length and that the length for a 'war sword' in Japan likely was of comparable length to the hand and a half swords seen in Europe. This also raises some interesting questions for that pesky 'longsword vs. katana' debate where a default argument is 'longsword has reach and therefore wins' given that half the katana represented here are of similar length to a longsword. Really raises interesting questions about how the concept of a '28 inch blade +/- 2 in.' has skewed ideas about kenjutsu and the Japanese sword in general. That's all if this sample is representative. Really thought provoking information.
I also noticed that at least 9 of them were carrying 2 shaku or longer (katana-length) "wakizashi". Interesting, particularly with the very long daito used....ryu they trained in, or some tactical consideration?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 3, 2020 22:04:08 GMT
As per usual for this forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 0:36:24 GMT
Baking soda
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 4, 2020 1:09:50 GMT
An old thread brought back with potentially enlightening questions, immediately derailed by someone promoting the latest flavor-of-the-week "silly" thread on some other part of the forum.
Bleh.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 1:37:13 GMT
That would be..............you
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 4, 2020 1:53:16 GMT
Well, silly me and my silly threads.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 2:03:41 GMT
troll
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 4, 2020 2:16:16 GMT
I have practiced with a group in Tucson, AZ who train in Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu. It is a koryu art that was founded in 1640, which was 62 years before the execution of Lord Kira by the 47 ronin. Sekiguchi ShinShin Ryu uses 2.8 shaku katanas (33.5 inches) as their standard length, with some practitioners using 36" blades. So you know Carl McClafferty? Dan Keupp? One of the reasons for the long blades is that most of their kata are from Seiza
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 4, 2020 2:19:06 GMT
An old thread brought back with potentially enlightening questions, immediately derailed by someone promoting the latest flavor-of-the-week "silly" thread on some other part of the forum. Bleh. This is my thread and I can derail it if I want SO THERE. They're just mad that you beat them to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 2:25:20 GMT
Mee toooooo
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 2:33:16 GMT
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Jan 4, 2020 3:08:17 GMT
I have practiced with a group in Tucson, AZ who train in Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu. It is a koryu art that was founded in 1640, which was 62 years before the execution of Lord Kira by the 47 ronin. Sekiguchi ShinShin Ryu uses 2.8 shaku katanas (33.5 inches) as their standard length, with some practitioners using 36" blades. So you know Carl McClafferty? Dan Keupp? One of the reasons for the long blades is that most of their kata are from Seiza I know Dan Keupp, yes. He invited me to train with his group in Tucson. Yamada Soke was there when I attended and he instructed me a bit in the use of the tanto. Really enjoyed it. Great group of people in that organization.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 4, 2020 5:49:21 GMT
So you know Carl McClafferty? Dan Keupp? One of the reasons for the long blades is that most of their kata are from Seiza I know Dan Keupp, yes. He invited me to train with his group in Tucson. Yamada Soke was there when I attended and he instructed me a bit in the use of the tanto. Really enjoyed it. Great group of people in that organization.
Carl and Dan are friends of mine. Carl and Tonya have been guests in my home while coming to So.Calif. To compete in Tai Kai's sponsored by my dojo. I have been to Tucson several times to compete in the Tai kai's they frequently sponsored i have a number of medals in kata and tameshigiri from their Tai Kai's . Always very competitive and the parties after we're memorable. Sekiguchi Shinshin Ryu was practiced many of those responsible for the personal protection of the Daimyo, hence so much of the art practiced from seiza and the need for swords with "reach".
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Post by sacredcompass on Jan 5, 2020 21:25:32 GMT
I'm guessing they made the swords smaller/thinner/shorter after the warring periods maybe for monetary interest as it made for easier to carry and use by a wider audience so the kenjutsu schools had more students to make a living off of? Smiths would have made more money too I'm guessing, but didn't the post-war government outright ban swords?
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 5, 2020 21:37:47 GMT
I'm guessing they made the swords smaller/thinner/shorter after the warring periods maybe for monetary interest as it made for easier to carry and use by a wider audience so the kenjutsu schools had more students to make a living off of? Smiths would have made more money too I'm guessing, but didn't the post-war government outright ban swords? Only members of the samurai and noble classes could own swords....
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Post by tensho on Jan 5, 2020 22:17:10 GMT
I'm guessing they made the swords smaller/thinner/shorter after the warring periods maybe for monetary interest as it made for easier to carry and use by a wider audience so the kenjutsu schools had more students to make a living off of? Smiths would have made more money too I'm guessing, but didn't the post-war government outright ban swords? Only members of the samurai and noble classes could own swords.... This is not entirely true. The sword hunt of 1588 banned all peasants/farmers from owning swords in fear of upheaval. These were basically the Ashigaru, the foot soldiers who basically did all the fighting. Merchants, nobles etc. Were still allowed to carry swords(this of course varied by regions) except katana and especially two swords. It wasn't until the first Haitōrei of 1870 that merchants and farmers were strictly prohibited from wearing swords. And then of course later on even samurai. This is why wakizashi aren't really as valuable to collectors. Basically anyone could have them, and chances are high a merchant owned it. Now, if you have a katana that is a different story. Chances are very high it was owned by a samurai.
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 5, 2020 22:19:31 GMT
I'm guessing they made the swords smaller/thinner/shorter after the warring periods maybe for monetary interest as it made for easier to carry and use by a wider audience so the kenjutsu schools had more students to make a living off of? Smiths would have made more money too I'm guessing, but didn't the post-war government outright ban swords? Only members of the samurai and noble classes could own swords.... Not prior to the 1570's on Honshu, and prior to 1588 in the rest of Japan. The history of the sword laws is complicated, and has its basis in the monk and peasant revolts which began more than a hundred years before the Sengoku proper. When Nobunaga began to get the upper hand in the 1570's, limiting arms to the samurai was one of his goals. When Hideyoshi became Taiko in 1588, he extended similar bans to the entire country. After the Sengoku finally ended for good in 1600, with Tokugawa as Shogun, the laws regarding sword dimensions and ownership fluctuated pretty much throughout the Edo period. Generally, non-samurai could own tanto and wakizashi to protect themselves from bandits, but not katana or pole arms.
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