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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 19:52:52 GMT
But that would deprive you of viewing the other half dozen or so rapier vids he made. ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Also, I'm too lazy to track down the one or two where he makes the most precise comments regarding our discussion. It is all pretty interesting though, and he makes it abundantly clear that the rapier was a versatile monster that was not in the same galaxy (let alone universe) as the smallsword. Here you go foo, who is being snide here? A good natured joke turned toxic. I just don't understand why.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 19:58:03 GMT
I dunno about you, but I am happy to accept that some people come here to learn. By extension, not everyone has read all the relevant literature, whether due to constraints of time, finances etc. Thats fine. Dun need to sass everyone up and throw the literature at them. If you don't feel like answering, then don't. I have tried to hold my tongue for a while, but attitude like what is shown here and elsewhere really kills the forum. Most of us are amateurs who do this in our free time, however sparse that may be. We don't pretend to be experts - we offer our humble opinion and discuss as best we can and with the tools we can. If I am going to get hammered in the face whenever I say something which is slightly inaccurate, then whats the fun? If you read through the train of thought, it was master howler mentioning himself as being too lazy to shag a video link to further support someones expertise (other than his). PLEASE read what Afoo is saying. I don't understand the anger.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 19:59:48 GMT
Well, almost not stupid questions..."hey Gandy, should I throw away this fine bottle of rum you've been saving for the weekend?" Hhmmm Maybe I need to reconsider that post? Depends on the severity of the hangover.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 20:04:30 GMT
So, I wonder if a rapier might also have been used frequently as a cutting weapon, too, at least in the hands of people like you and me, rather than in the hands of gentlemen. Most period rapier treatises do in fact give instruction on how to deliver cuts and when to use them. You're not gonna lop off heads or limbs, but most rapiers could totally sever the tendons and muscles in your hand or forearm, open a major blood vessel or slice your face up a treat, and these are all common enough actions used by perfectly gentlemanly fencers back in the day. For example, from Capo Ferro's Gran Simulacro (via Wiktenauer): (Of course, that's just the main body of his general instruction regarding cuts in specific; the majority of his plays also feature various cutting actions.) On the heavier rapier that were ponderous to swing I understand that slicing by push and pull cuts were the thing to do, and combined with the Maine Gauche you get a lot more capability.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 15, 2018 20:42:48 GMT
Well, to be on-point, I like the musketeer a bit although it feels a tad heavy in the hand. The impressive cup-style guard adds a bit of weight as a tradeoff to its appreciable protection (and nice design), and makes the sword feel a little heavy, but nothing like swinging around a 3+ lb. sword around with one hand. It has flex, but doesn't strike me as whippy and the thrust is exquisite (haven't sharpened mine, so no comment on cutting performance). The wire grip is pretty darn comfortable and it's easy to curl your fingers around the ricasso, no real bulge that gets in the way.
I like mine a lot, and I find that paired with the matching main gauche it forms a very tasteful and effective set of weapons. I personally prefer to use the rapier as part of two sword system in tandem with the main gauche. When used in combination, focusing on blocking/parrying/interfering with the main gauche and then sniping with the rapier is really fun. Often I use the rapier left handed to build up strength and to practice these "sniping" shenanigans while using the main gauche with my more trained hand. Fun times.
I really like the Christus Imperat, want to buy one someday. It has a pleasant design and I don't think it would be a bad choice. The pilsen has lighter stats, so if you're inclined to something more agile it could be fun. Haven't used one before so can't comment on it much.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 20:59:32 GMT
Well, to be on-point, I like the musketeer a bit although it feels a tad heavy in the hand. The impressive cup-style guard adds a bit of weight as a tradeoff to its appreciable protection (and nice design), and makes the sword feel a little heavy, but nothing like swinging around a 3+ lb. sword around with one hand. It has flex, but doesn't strike me as whippy and the thrust is exquisite (haven't sharpened mine, so no comment on cutting performance). The wire grip is pretty darn comfortable and it's easy to curl your fingers around the ricasso, no real bulge that gets in the way. I like mine a lot, and I find that paired with the matching main gauche it forms a very tasteful and effective set of weapons. I personally prefer to use the rapier as part of two sword system in tandem with the main gauche. When used in combination, focusing on blocking/parrying/interfering with the main gauche and then sniping with the rapier is really fun. Often I use the rapier left handed to build up strength and to practice these "sniping" shenanigans while using the main gauche with my more trained hand. Fun times. I really like the Christus Imperat, want to buy one someday. It has a pleasant design and I don't think it would be a bad choice. The pilsen has lighter stats, so if you're inclined to something more agile it could be fun. Haven't used one before so can't comment on it much. The main gauche really adds to the effectiveness of (particularly heavy) rapier. Your less apt to cross your blades due to thrusting nature of the rapier and the length discrepancy between rapier and offhand dagger. Quite an amplification of offense and defense. I wonder how much additional training it would take to become proficient.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 15, 2018 21:20:56 GMT
Well, to be on-point, I like the musketeer a bit although it feels a tad heavy in the hand. The impressive cup-style guard adds a bit of weight as a tradeoff to its appreciable protection (and nice design), and makes the sword feel a little heavy, but nothing like swinging around a 3+ lb. sword around with one hand. It has flex, but doesn't strike me as whippy and the thrust is exquisite (haven't sharpened mine, so no comment on cutting performance). The wire grip is pretty darn comfortable and it's easy to curl your fingers around the ricasso, no real bulge that gets in the way. I like mine a lot, and I find that paired with the matching main gauche it forms a very tasteful and effective set of weapons. I personally prefer to use the rapier as part of two sword system in tandem with the main gauche. When used in combination, focusing on blocking/parrying/interfering with the main gauche and then sniping with the rapier is really fun. Often I use the rapier left handed to build up strength and to practice these "sniping" shenanigans while using the main gauche with my more trained hand. Fun times. I really like the Christus Imperat, want to buy one someday. It has a pleasant design and I don't think it would be a bad choice. The pilsen has lighter stats, so if you're inclined to something more agile it could be fun. Haven't used one before so can't comment on it much. The main gauche really adds to the effectiveness of (particularly heavy) rapier. Your less apt to cross your blades due to thrusting nature of the rapier and the length discrepancy between rapier and offhand dagger. Quite an amplification of offense and defense. I wonder how much additional training it would take to become proficient. I generally think it's easier and more intuitive to use two weapons versus one in most cases. Your body mechanics are based around having two arms flail around, so letting them work in tandem seems logical to me. I think it would actually be more difficult to effectively use only the rapier without the dagger since that seems a more effective system. Kind of like how using an arming sword without a shield or a buckler would require a different (and probably more difficult) type of strategy.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 21:39:02 GMT
The main gauche really adds to the effectiveness of (particularly heavy) rapier. Your less apt to cross your blades due to thrusting nature of the rapier and the length discrepancy between rapier and offhand dagger. Quite an amplification of offense and defense. I wonder how much additional training it would take to become proficient. I generally think it's easier and more intuitive to use two weapons versus one in most cases. Your body mechanics are based around having two arms flail around, so letting them work in tandem seems logical to me. I think it would actually be more difficult to effectively use only the rapier without the dagger since that seems a more effective system. Kind of like how using an arming sword without a shield or a buckler would require a different (and probably more difficult) type of strategy. Yeah, and with a big rapier your not swinging around so much anyway, and with that dagger, if someone gets within the point of the rapier..."say hello to my little friend (apologies to Scarface) Mr. dagger" while rapier does push, pull cuts.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 15, 2018 22:07:20 GMT
Well, to be on-point, I like the musketeer a bit although it feels a tad heavy in the hand. The impressive cup-style guard adds a bit of weight as a tradeoff to its appreciable protection (and nice design), and makes the sword feel a little heavy, but nothing like swinging around a 3+ lb. sword around with one hand. It has flex, but doesn't strike me as whippy and the thrust is exquisite (haven't sharpened mine, so no comment on cutting performance). The wire grip is pretty darn comfortable and it's easy to curl your fingers around the ricasso, no real bulge that gets in the way. I like mine a lot, and I find that paired with the matching main gauche it forms a very tasteful and effective set of weapons. I personally prefer to use the rapier as part of two sword system in tandem with the main gauche. When used in combination, focusing on blocking/parrying/interfering with the main gauche and then sniping with the rapier is really fun. Often I use the rapier left handed to build up strength and to practice these "sniping" shenanigans while using the main gauche with my more trained hand. Fun times. I really like the Christus Imperat, want to buy one someday. It has a pleasant design and I don't think it would be a bad choice. The pilsen has lighter stats, so if you're inclined to something more agile it could be fun. Haven't used one before so can't comment on it much. The main gauche really adds to the effectiveness of (particularly heavy) rapier. Your less apt to cross your blades due to thrusting nature of the rapier and the length discrepancy between rapier and offhand dagger. Quite an amplification of offense and defense. I wonder how much additional training it would take to become proficient. Lots of training. I haven't attended class lately due to life getting too busy but it required a lot of extra thinking about where that extra blade is.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 22:21:04 GMT
The main gauche really adds to the effectiveness of (particularly heavy) rapier. Your less apt to cross your blades due to thrusting nature of the rapier and the length discrepancy between rapier and offhand dagger. Quite an amplification of offense and defense. I wonder how much additional training it would take to become proficient. Lots of training. I haven't attended class lately due to life getting too busy but it required a lot of extra thinking about where that extra blade is. I had considered that, though you may swing less with certain rapier as opposed to other sword type, there is still sharp, double edged steel with a point to contend with in your other hand, so potential to hurt yourself.
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Post by bluetrain on May 16, 2018 10:09:11 GMT
Can I ask another question about Windlass rapiers and also Cold Steel rapiers? There's no place around here where I can examine one in person.
I first assume that the blades on all of these are plain unfinished (unplated, that is) carbon steel. I know that current production ceremonial military swords are generally either plated or of stainless steel. But I expect that all of these are otherwise.
But what about the rest of the sword. Few descriptions at K of A mention how any part of the hilt except for the grip is finished. At least one Cold Steel rapier has a stainless steel guard. Historically, I imagine that the finish for the guard could be anything from bare steel to gilt. I also happened to notice that the Cold Steel British 1908 saber (what they call it, anyway) has, on paper, very similar characteristics to many rapiers in the way of weight and balance.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 16, 2018 10:27:19 GMT
Good question! Is the 1908 saber a rapier with better hand protection or are there remarkable differences in blade, handling etc. ?
I don't know what stuff the guards are made of, sorry. I assume stainless or mild steel.
The 4 Cold Steel repros of modern military swords have 1055 carbon steel blades. I have the Navy Officer's and the Marine NCO's and like them both very much.
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Post by MOK on May 16, 2018 11:04:59 GMT
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Post by bluetrain on May 16, 2018 11:24:06 GMT
The Cold Steel version of the 1908 saber is incorrect in the shape of the grip. I believe it may be the India pattern. I once attended the wedding (about 30 years ago) of a man who had been an officer in a horse-mounted unit in WWII (Cheshire Yeomanry) and had taken part in the last mounted operation conducted by the British during the war. They used a 1908 saber to cut the cake, although it wasn't an officer's model.
I think you are correct about the blade not being anything like a rapier blade. Although not made for fencing, the purpose was still the same, of course. As regards the descriptions in K of A, I guess the blade is what most people would be interested in anyway but I was a little surprised that one of the Cold Steel rapiers had a stainless steel guard.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 16, 2018 12:07:36 GMT
I had the idea for this question because Dave Kelly called them in his 1908/1912 SWORD ( ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ) review/comparison the "ultimate rapier". And afaik the older heavy rapiers together with a main gauche were used in a way that couldn't really be called modern fencing too. The CS seems to be a rapier in that way. CS has also the lighter Transitional Rapier.
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Post by bluetrain on May 16, 2018 13:05:44 GMT
It almost seems like a rapier would have been just as effective a weapon in 1850 as it would have been in 1650, although by then, it was nowhere to be seen on the battlefield, yet swords were still commonly carried.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 16, 2018 13:29:38 GMT
Hhmmm Maybe I need to reconsider that post? Depends on the severity of the hangover. The truth is that I love tequila and rum and drink daily. Less now with the PTSD improved but daily. As far as getting drunk, I can’t remember the last time. While I have a thing for the booze getting drunk is a no-no and one of the worst feelings I know and avoid being so like the plaque. I am no good to myself nor others when drunk and would probably have been dead years ago by not thinking or moving fast enough to avoid/escape whatever... As for drugs no way. I’ve seen what it has done to others.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 16, 2018 13:53:56 GMT
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Post by bluetrain on May 16, 2018 14:04:03 GMT
Uh-oh!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 14:11:09 GMT
It almost seems like a rapier would have been just as effective a weapon in 1850 as it would have been in 1650, although by then, it was nowhere to be seen on the battlefield, yet swords were still commonly carried. It may have been that it was simply easier and cheaper to carry the simpler saber style sword, since by this time the primary battlefield weapon for soldiers was a firearm.
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