pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 15, 2018 8:21:26 GMT
I’m going to chime in here too. Too often I see members who consider themselves superior, more knowledgeable, or disagree put down others. Where’s the learning process? Or is it an ego trip that makes one feel better thinking that they are superior, or perhaps is it bullying? There are no stupid questions.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 8:56:43 GMT
I’m going to chime in here too. Too often I see members who consider themselves superior, more knowledgeable, or disagree put down others. Where’s the learning process? Or is it an ego trip that makes one feel better thinking that they are superior, or perhaps is it bullying? There are no stupid questions. Well, almost no stupid questions..."hey Gandy, should I throw away this fine bottle of rum you've been saving for the weekend?"
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Post by bluetrain on May 15, 2018 9:22:06 GMT
I also noted the "1/3rd heavier" cut than previous sabers, too. I once owned a Patton saber (purchased just outside Ft. Riley, Kansas, former home of the cavalry) and that claim seems doubtful. Still, it should have been a decent cutter for the day, provided it was sharp. There was a suggestion made at the time that they be issued sharp, which apparently was considered an innovation. I'd probably say it was a better cutter than the British issue saber of the day. There were other very similar cavalry sabers in use at the time, so it looks like Patton's design was merely following the trend.
It's not a lightweight sword by any means and to bring us back to rapiers (never having owned one myself), I am led to believe that a rapier was a fairly decent cutting weapon, as well as a good thrusting weapon. I'm pretty sure that the cavalry in the immediate Great War period would have admitted that a slashing cut would also have inevitably been used in close combat (not the charge). So, I wonder if a rapier might also have been used frequently as a cutting weapon, too, at least in the hands of people like you and me, rather than in the hands of gentlemen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 10:07:19 GMT
Is offering up external links instead of wondering about a subject a bad thing? I don't think so. Is having to reply to defend that five times over one post a good thing? No I don't think so. Is driving off topic in every thread a good thing?, I personally don't think so. Is deferring to material without bothering to link stuff a good thing, again, I personally don't think so. Parroting information without offering the resources a good thing? Who is really learning there?
If some would rather joke and post drunk, hey more power to you. At the same time, playing authoritative and then being hurt when someone bothers to offer correction is a bit lame in and of itself. Admittedly lazy? That's all I really needed to know.
There are ten pinned threads at the head of this section and I know some have read and participated in them. How many of those have been driven off topic? How many of those have I even participated in. How many have I read? I have read all of them.
Did I jump in this stream when howler went off topic? Why, yes I did. Go figure. Has the ongoing continuum regarded Windlass rapiers? Not lately, I tried though.
Carry on.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 10:18:48 GMT
Yet, you begin your current dissertation with wondering what Patton would say. My reply was pointing out that there was no reason to wonder, as Patton's thoughts are voiced and printed long before our time. My question as to your own understandings kind of underlines, to me, how many learn in a fairly closed and limited manner. One could do worse than abstracting from forums and videos but it reads as a bit shallow to me. Too lazy, gotcha No reason for me to wonder.I dunno about you, but I am happy to accept that some people come here to learn. By extension, not everyone has read all the relevant literature, whether due to constraints of time, finances etc. Thats fine. Dun need to sass everyone up and throw the literature at them. If you don't feel like answering, then don't. I have tried to hold my tongue for a while, but attitude like what is shown here and elsewhere really kills the forum. Most of us are amateurs who do this in our free time, however sparse that may be. We don't pretend to be experts - we offer our humble opinion and discuss as best we can and with the tools we can. If I am going to get hammered in the face whenever I say something which is slightly inaccurate, then whats the fun? If you read through the train of thought, it was master howler mentioning himself as being too lazy to shag a video link to further support someones expertise (other than his).
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 10:20:42 GMT
So, why not just post the video? But that would deprive you of viewing the other half dozen or so rapier vids he made. ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Also, I'm too lazy to track down the one or two where he makes the most precise comments regarding our discussion. It is all pretty interesting though, and he makes it abundantly clear that the rapier was a versatile monster that was not in the same galaxy (let alone universe) as the smallsword. Here you go foo, who is being snide here?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 15, 2018 12:32:01 GMT
I’m going to chime in here too. Too often I see members who consider themselves superior, more knowledgeable, or disagree put down others. Where’s the learning process? Or is it an ego trip that makes one feel better thinking that they are superior, or perhaps is it bullying? There are no stupid questions. Well, almost not stupid questions..."hey Gandy, should I throw away this fine bottle of rum you've been saving for the weekend?" Hhmmm Maybe I need to reconsider that post?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 15, 2018 13:12:48 GMT
So, I wonder if a rapier might also have been used frequently as a cutting weapon, too, at least in the hands of people like you and me, rather than in the hands of gentlemen. Rapiers were used for a couple of hundred years over a wide territory. To lock it in to a tightly fixed pattern I don’t think would be correct. During the rapier’s life span they changed as they continued to evolve. Some rapiers had triangular blades and were never intended to cut. Others had blades fully sharpened, partially sharpened, or not sharpened at all. And then there were different schools teaching different techniques. There were the rapiers that paid more attention to the cut/slash known as cutting rapiers or war rapiers that had wider blades. Rapiers can be found with a wide range of variations depending on period, location, and preferred technique of the user. From Wikipedia here is what I would consider a war rapier. ![Rapier 1.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/TgEoLBNxtTsXPzrgXElB.png)
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Post by MOK on May 15, 2018 14:00:02 GMT
So, I wonder if a rapier might also have been used frequently as a cutting weapon, too, at least in the hands of people like you and me, rather than in the hands of gentlemen. Most period rapier treatises do in fact give instruction on how to deliver cuts and when to use them. You're not gonna lop off heads or limbs, but most rapiers could totally sever the tendons and muscles in your hand or forearm, open a major blood vessel or slice your face up a treat, and these are all common enough actions used by perfectly gentlemanly fencers back in the day. For example, from Capo Ferro's Gran Simulacro (via Wiktenauer): (Of course, that's just the main body of his general instruction regarding cuts in specific; the majority of his plays also feature various cutting actions.)
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Post by bluetrain on May 15, 2018 14:23:54 GMT
Although the concept of a thrusting, puncture wound is easy to understand, perhaps we sometimes have the wrong idea of cutting. What is useful in combat may be nothing like cutting through mats or plastic water bottles or the like. Given that the likely targets with a rapier or other straight sword would be neck, face, arms, hands and shoulders, the cutting ability of most rapiers, assuming a sharp blade, would be adequate in most cases. I am likewise assuming that a cut on the trunk in the front would be unlikely and in any event, that would be the target for a thrust, if you follow me. So I'd have to conclude that not only would cutting ability for a rapier be very possible, it would also be essential.
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Post by wlewisiii on May 15, 2018 14:28:50 GMT
So, I wonder if a rapier might also have been used frequently as a cutting weapon, too, at least in the hands of people like you and me, rather than in the hands of gentlemen. I've thought, mostly based on reading things like Silver, that the whole point of the English preference for a proper cut and thrust sword was due to civilian rapiers being, essentially, dedicated thrust weapons with limited cutting ability. Since I tend towards the saber anyway, this has tended to drive me away from the rapier. However, when you look at the Christus Imperat or the reproduction made by Todd Todeschini and discussed by him and Matt Easton here: and here: In these two rapiers there are weapons that are longer than I'd care for and highly optimized for thrusting (especially off the bind as was the preferred technique IIUC the rapier materials I have read) yet are still very capable of cutting - certainly far more so than the Three Musketeer's stereotype would have it. I read threads like this to learn and mostly that happens. I'm willing to stick my neck out there too and if wrong, I appreciate correction. That said, I'd still rather either a nice hand and a half or a side sword ala "Munich Town Guard" and combine it with a buckler over any rapier & dagger I've yet seen. The Christus, though, does look like a very nice weapon, indeed.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 14:39:28 GMT
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Post by bluetrain on May 15, 2018 16:01:47 GMT
Well, here's another question for you, lest anyone lose interest in this (these) topic(s).
How common were rapiers? It has no bearing on anything mentioned so far, really, but somehow I doubt that many ordinary people owned one, since most men aren't gentlemen. Supposedly after Culloden, there were relatively few broadswords recovered or turned in after the battle, relative to other weapons. In other words, although a basket-hilted broadsword was THE weapon in the North, it wasn't like every man had one. Likewise, I suspect that a rapier was a relatively expensive thing and that only men of means ("gentlemen") would have one. Ownership might be higher under certain circumstances, like a party outfitted for settling in the New World, both North and South.
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Post by 28shadow on May 15, 2018 16:17:17 GMT
Lots of great information about rapiers in general, and some other stuff in this thread. Thread kinda exploded overnight. Was very excited to see four pages of content, even though only one page really pertains to my question of which of the current production line of swords met some quality criteria, primarily stiffness of blade.
Now for me to derail my own thread. On the topic of friendliness, rudeness, and education: there is a time, place, and nice way to do it. There are lots of members who are new to the sword collecting world, fresh eyes who look in wonder at the various items of their interest. We have all been there. No matter how high and mighty one may think they are, we have all been there. Constantly screaming "YOU'RE WRONG, BOW BEFORE MY SUPREME KNOWLEDGE" and shoving it down peoples throats is not the way to go. Instead, say "You see, that's actually a very common misconception, here's why..." or "Interesting, have you thought of ____" instead of constantly putting others down. It isn't constructive.
In regards to discussion boards vs. Facebook. I vastly prefer this forum. Those who go through the effort of creating an account here and learning how to use this forum deserve a chance to learn and be welcome to the community. It isn't as easy as facebook where you can create an account and go about posting whatever and where ever you want. I'll say that any idiot can create a facebook profile, it's designed to be easy. It's a little bit of a lengthier process to create an account and presence here on the forum, and I believe most individuals who go through the process are, in fact, slightly more intelligent. The proof is in the pudding. Looking in one of the groups on Facebook, one can see in the past week approximately 5 posts with hundreds of comments each, and each one got so fervently toxic that the thread had to be locked down and bans issued. That toxicity cycles on Facebook week in and week out. On this forum in the past 4 years I have yet to encounter such toxicity. I can count on one hand using two fingers (and one of those fingers is missing part of it's fingertip) how many times on this forum I've gotten "angry" over something someone said. Whereas I can't think of how many hands it would take to count the positive interactions I've been a part of or witnessed here. It makes me truly happy to be a part of this community as a whole. I am proud to call myself a member of the Sword Buyer's Guide Forum.
Thank you.
Now, can we please talk about the merits between the Pilsen, Musketeer, and Christus Imperat rapiers? I most likely will purchase one of these on Saturday during the MRL sale. Currently leaning towards the Pilsen. It's the lightest of the three and the one I have heard the most about in various reviews.
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Post by Afoo on May 15, 2018 16:23:34 GMT
I would go for the Christus. The Pilsen has a nice stiff blade, but overall it is a bit small. The blade is on what I believe to be the short and narrow side and the guard, while it looks nice, is a bit small. It is a rapier, but it feels like its starting the transition over to the small sword side of the spectrum. I have not handled the Christus, but the reviews and numbers suggest that its perhaps more reflective of the type.
This is of course speculation based on my somewhat limited knowledge of the field
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Post by 28shadow on May 15, 2018 16:31:29 GMT
I would go for the Christus. The Pilsen has a nice stiff blade, but overall it is a bit small. The blade is on what I believe to be the short and narrow side and the guard, while it looks nice, is a bit small. It is a rapier, but it feels like its starting the transition over to the small sword side of the spectrum. I have not handled the Christus, but the reviews and numbers suggest that its perhaps more reflective of the type. This is of course speculation based on my somewhat limited knowledge of the field It must be a good sword, as I just noticed it and the Brandenburg are both sold out on MRL and KOA. Unless I'm going to be patient (which I rarely am) I may choose the pilsen anyway. I do not mind lighter swords. The musketeer intrigues me as well, as it reminds me of a more cut-n-thrust style of blade.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2018 17:24:27 GMT
I like the looks of the Pilsen, but to me it looks like it's a transitional type between a sidesword and a rapier. If I didn't already have a sidesword, I'd find it very tempting.
Though if I was going to indulge my inner D'Artagnen I would definitely go with the Musketeer.
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Post by Afoo on May 15, 2018 17:43:16 GMT
I would go for the Christus. The Pilsen has a nice stiff blade, but overall it is a bit small. The blade is on what I believe to be the short and narrow side and the guard, while it looks nice, is a bit small. It is a rapier, but it feels like its starting the transition over to the small sword side of the spectrum. I have not handled the Christus, but the reviews and numbers suggest that its perhaps more reflective of the type. This is of course speculation based on my somewhat limited knowledge of the field It must be a good sword, as I just noticed it and the Brandenburg are both sold out on MRL and KOA. Unless I'm going to be patient (which I rarely am) I may choose the pilsen anyway. I do not mind lighter swords. The musketeer intrigues me as well, as it reminds me of a more cut-n-thrust style of blade. I like the pilsen - its a solid choice and a good sword in its own right. Just wanted to let you know what to expect. Especially if you get one for a good price.
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Post by Faldarin on May 15, 2018 17:53:23 GMT
Though if I was going to indulge my inner D'Artagnen I would definitely go with the Musketeer. I am not much of a 'rapier guy' - but this sentiment hits home with me. It does seem more of a cut & thrust blade combination than what most would think of a rapier as. If I'd be getting a rapier, it would be the Musketeer. ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Again, grain of salt on my opinion.
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Post by howler on May 15, 2018 19:46:03 GMT
Is offering up external links instead of wondering about a subject a bad thing? I don't think so. Is having to reply to defend that five times over one post a good thing? No I don't think so. Is driving off topic in every thread a good thing?, I personally don't think so. Is deferring to material without bothering to link stuff a good thing, again, I personally don't think so. Parroting information without offering the resources a good thing? Who is really learning there? If some would rather joke and post drunk, hey more power to you. At the same time, playing authoritative and then being hurt when someone bothers to offer correction is a bit lame in and of itself. Admittedly lazy? That's all I really needed to know. There are ten pinned threads at the head of this section and I know some have read and participated in them. How many of those have been driven off topic? How many of those have I even participated in. How many have I read? I have read all of them. Did I jump in this stream when howler went off topic? Why, yes I did. Go figure. Has the ongoing continuum regarded Windlass rapiers? Not lately, I tried though. Carry on. Not sure where so much anger is coming from. I've read my posts again on the thread and I just cannot understand how and why you are reading so much (mainly negative) from so little? Jokes are fun. I had ONE beer, and I'm as "authoritative" as Sgt. Schultz of Hogan's Heroes. I may sometimes parrot things that are generally understood as universally true, like polearm over sword (though maybe not on par with Einstein and law of gravity). No big deal, really. On topic, off topic...thread meandering can sometimes be fun and informative. Hey, I mentioned what Scholagladiatoria said on one of his rapier videos and said I was too lazy to track down the specific comment...does this make me an irredeemably lazy person? This thinking is toxic and it will make less people post. Hell, I'm thinking about posting less. This ain't fun and it ain't worth it. Now boring answer: Windlass rapier I'd pick...Christus Imperat. Zzzzz
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