Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 22:22:06 GMT
Sword is sometimes used as a English word for degen.
So What?
Doesn't a translation to German just show Kårde as Kårde?
What's your take on George III and the British p1796 infantry officer sword and its origin? Why would they be regarded in England as a spadroon and not an offiziersdegen?
See you around
Cheers GC
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 28, 2020 22:25:14 GMT
I just guess the British used English terms (with Italian origin) for their British swords (even with German origin royals) .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 22:53:36 GMT
I just guess the British used English terms (with Italian origin) for their British swords (even with German origin royals) . A German form of an officer's sword as well. Some French regard spadroons as à monture à l'anglais. I wonder what they called a degen What a Kårde
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 29, 2020 0:21:02 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 29, 2020 0:35:15 GMT
I'll have to read your first response Edelweiss when I have more sleep. I have recently taken to fencing with the spadroon and find it an excellent weapon.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 29, 2020 1:55:12 GMT
I have recently taken to fencing with the spadroon and find it an excellent weapon. That's what I've been saying all along. I only have two a Windlass M1840 NCO and a Universal P1796. If and when (I believe Universal will) change that to a 10xx steel I'll buy another. That is the only sword that I have that I would have two of the same model. However, it's my backsword that remains at my headboard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 2:46:10 GMT
I'll have to read your first response Edelweiss when I have more sleep. I have recently taken to fencing with the spadroon and find it an excellent weapon. I find the book quite interesting, as referencing many old works. For context regarding spadroons and heavier 17th and 18th century swordplay, start reading at the start of chapter XII. Chapter XIII shares some that I babble about regarding turning the guard in and distancing from a rapier hold (see Hope. Lots of plates For Andi Fencing in Germany during the Seventeenth and the Eighteenth Centuries. begins on page 179 As the fashion came from Italy, not only its principles but many of the terms connected therewith were naturally enough closely copied from those in favour among the best known masters of that country, even as we have seen Sainct Didier coining uncouth words in his attempt to assimilate the Italian manner, and the Elizabethan devotee of the rapier discoursing in an outlandish jargon—Italian grafted on Spanish—on the " stocado " and " punto reverso," "putting a stock," or " counterchecking a montanto." On points of fashion imitators are naturally somewhat be .......by page 184 At Jena, Halle, Leipzig, Heidelberg, and, later on, Goettingen, Helmstadt, and Giessen, duels were so common and so dangerous—the usual play being what we would call spadroon or cut-and-thrust fencing—that the most peaceable student was never sure of his life for a single day.
As to their small-sword play, it was a slight modification of the Italian, as the following description, taken from Angelo's " Ecole des Armes," printed in 1763, will sufficiently show : —and Besides this truly German small-sword and the national spadroon or Cut-and-thrust play, regular academical fencing as it was practised in Paris was likewise taught in a few German schools, generally, however, for the special use of the small Courts, where everything French was curiously imitated.So yes, an Englishman regarding German swordsmanship and a more than fair nod to the influences of Italian and French masters. no mas GC Hi O Silver!!! also all of Roworth in one place swordfight.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/ART-OF-DEFENCE-ON-FOOT-1824-Fourth-Edition.pdf
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 29, 2020 9:06:16 GMT
The Germans knew cut and thrust swords and cut and thrust fencing, they just don't called those swords "spadroons". This is a term used by Englishmen only. ("... what we would call spadroon...")
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Post by treeslicer on Feb 29, 2020 10:20:00 GMT
Looks like a pigsticker to me.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 29, 2020 10:23:17 GMT
German: "Saudegen" ! (no joke!)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 12:12:42 GMT
The Germans knew cut and thrust swords and cut and thrust fencing, they just don't called those swords "spadroons". This is a term used by Englishmen only. ("... what we would call spadroon...") Ignoring the first paragraph. Atta boy Andi As the fashion came from Italy, not only its principles but many of the terms connected therewith were naturally enough closely copied from those in favour among the best known masters of that country, even as we have seen Sainct Didier coining uncouth words in his attempt to assimilate the Italian manner, and the Elizabethan devotee of the rapier discoursing in an outlandish jargon—Italian grafted on Spanish—on the " stocado " and " punto reverso," "putting a stock," or " counterchecking a montanto." On points of fashion imitators are naturally somewhat be .......watta spadrone Cheers GC
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 29, 2020 18:10:47 GMT
Where exactly do you see here any evidence that the Germans used the term spadrone/spadroon on a regular basis for the classification of those swords? That's just flawed logic and wrong conclusion. I can't find any evidence in German sources for this, show me one and I stand corrected.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 18:52:09 GMT
I'll leave you with denial then Andi, as it does not bother me to continue posting of the book in spadroon debates. I will again point to earlier posts, beginning with my words, notably in my first reply to this thread. Your thoughts seem to follow logic regarding the fallacy of the undistributed middle. I find my own thoughts quite open minded and considering the fallacy of the undistributed middle. I also explained _my_ thoughts on how the author came to his conclusions. You have determined that a lack of evidence is absolute. Good luck with that. Cheers GC
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 1, 2020 9:32:19 GMT
Doubtless the Germans when adopting the spanish and italian fighting styles they also adapted spanish/italian terms for certain actions. Maybe some also used the term spada or spadone for the swords, but I guess rather this way: "Hey Heinrich, guess how the Italians call our Degen!". There never was a need for a new name because the German term degen covered a wide range of swords and the classification was easily made with adding additional terms like "degen zu hieb und stoß". The English had a stronger reason to find a new term for a sword sized between a smallsword and a rapier. I didn't critizise anything you said about spadroons except that the term was a common classicication in Germany. You have a by far better knowledge and more resources about this swords.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 2, 2020 8:56:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 18:00:49 GMT
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 2, 2020 19:14:42 GMT
Thanks for the tip! No, I din't read anything from von Horn/Oertel, just looked him up on wikipedia. Impressing list! (any abstracts of these books on wikipedia? ) ((If you have troubles with German terms just ask!))
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 19:40:54 GMT
Thanks for the tip! No, I din't read anything from von Horn/Oertel, just looked him up on wikipedia. Impressing list! (any abstracts of these books on wikipedia? ) ((If you have troubles with German terms just ask!)) The castle book is on my list My English translation books.google.com/books/about/The_Rhine.html?id=idcBAAAAYAAJThe chapter on Friedrichstein ends with a hoot and may explain zeller schwarze katz.
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 2, 2020 19:58:50 GMT
German: "Saudegen" ! (no joke!) Ja, gewiss.
Differing period and hilt, but similar capabilities.
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