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Post by elbrittania39 on Apr 24, 2018 14:14:16 GMT
Walloon? Pallasch? Sidesword? Nebulous Cut n thrust? What is the m1701 technically? I know not every sword fits in neatly, but I cant decide how to refer to this sword colloquially. Also in the same vein, if I do end up getting this one, what treatise would you recommend I study with it? I'm leaning towards some sort of sidesword, side ways stance, point extended, left arm cocked type thing. Cheers
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 24, 2018 16:10:09 GMT
I'd say pallasch.
I'd use my sabre treatise but fit some cuts differently, but I also have no clue what they practiced at this point.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 24, 2018 17:03:53 GMT
The blade looks heavy, that speaks for pallasch. If it's light despite one can call it a spadroon. As a German I can call it a degen (we call nearly every sword later than classic rapiers degen).
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kaiyo
Member
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Post by kaiyo on Apr 24, 2018 17:10:06 GMT
Reiter-Pallasch, used by the Cavalry
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 24, 2018 21:28:50 GMT
Walloon? Pallasch? Sidesword? Nebulous Cut n thrust? What is the m1701 technically? I know not every sword fits in neatly, but I cant decide how to refer to this sword colloquially. Also in the same vein, if I do end up getting this one, what treatise would you recommend I study with it? I'm leaning towards some sort of sidesword, side ways stance, point extended, left arm cocked type thing. Cheers As the background detail for the sword says, this is an officer senior NCO sidesword. Blade is only 31 inches long and the blade is a mm thinner than the cavalry sword. Definite cut and thrust profile, hex blade through the PoP and an elliptical foible. Pallaches have two basic components: 1. Long straight blade of 34-39 inches. 2. Basket or half basket guard.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,625
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Apr 24, 2018 21:46:20 GMT
Walloon? Pallasch? Sidesword? Nebulous Cut n thrust? What is the m1701 technically? I know not every sword fits in neatly, but I cant decide how to refer to this sword colloquially. Also in the same vein, if I do end up getting this one, what treatise would you recommend I study with it? I'm leaning towards some sort of sidesword, side ways stance, point extended, left arm cocked type thing. Cheers As the background detail for the sword says, this is an officer senior NCO sidesword. Blade is only 31 inches long and the blade is a mm thinner than the cavalry sword. Definite cut and thrust profile, hex blade through the PoP and an elliptical foible. Pallaches have two basic components: 1. Long straight blade of 34-39 inches. 2. Basket or half basket guard. There are many examples of Polish palasz which have only a knuckle bow and thumb ring.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Apr 25, 2018 2:01:13 GMT
Stand corrected on point of origin sword type designs of Poland. More familiar as the term was adopted in westward migration. German swords and future heavy line types are as described. Blame the Austrians.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 25, 2018 5:15:10 GMT
Walloon? Pallasch? Sidesword? Nebulous Cut n thrust? What is the m1701 technically? I know not every sword fits in neatly, but I cant decide how to refer to this sword colloquially. Also in the same vein, if I do end up getting this one, what treatise would you recommend I study with it? I'm leaning towards some sort of sidesword, side ways stance, point extended, left arm cocked type thing. Cheers As the background detail for the sword says, this is an officer senior NCO sidesword. Blade is only 31 inches long and the blade is a mm thinner than the cavalry sword. Definite cut and thrust profile, hex blade through the PoP and an elliptical foible. Pallaches have two basic components: 1. Long straight blade of 34-39 inches. 2. Basket or half basket guard. I totally missed the infantry designation. Agreed in no longer a pallasch.
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Post by christopher jonasson on Apr 27, 2018 20:14:35 GMT
Loos very much like a Swedish "Komissvärja" m/1685 however its missing a thumbring and second bar
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 27, 2018 20:23:51 GMT
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Post by 28shadow on Apr 27, 2018 20:36:25 GMT
I'd say it's a side sword, and as with any heavier single handed cut-n-thrust sword I'd recommend the George Silver mindset.
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Post by michaelj607 on Feb 28, 2020 14:09:35 GMT
I was wondering the same question has a decision been made on its classification? Seems very much like a walloon to me and were walloon not of Scandinavian or northern European origins the sword is Dano-Norwegian.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 28, 2020 15:25:15 GMT
Something else to me I consider now is that McBane was troddling about with a similar sword in function, and calling it a spadroon which is a derivative of the waloon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 18:11:28 GMT
We go through definition of a spadroon most every year and there may be some truth in also describing the above as a spadroon but it gets to be a bit or nonsense to me to define any as an absolute. This except that by the late 18th century, such a blade in England would be regarded as a broadsword. ie: the p1796 heavy cavalry dress which reflects a nod to the heavier wallonish pallasch of the past. I bring this reference up quite regularly. Granted, a late 19th century thesis Egerton Castle's book "Schools and Masters of Fence" p.207, "...the Italians and Germans had, it is true, a cutting play of thier own, and from them we took our so-called 'spadroon' or cut and thrust play, but it was practiced with weapons extremely light in comparison with our English backsword." On p.243, Castle notes further, "...a cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard approximating that of the smallsword was called 'spadroon' in England; it was in fact similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the 18th century, which has been called spadone or spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon.The German Spadroon was a regular double-edged sword, but any very light back or shearing sword was so called in England. Its play was essentially that of our modern single-stick, with a free use of the point, and the addition of a few drawing cuts with the false edge." So, even the last sentence there alluding to at least a partial false edge, however Castle (p. 207) seemingly regarding the European spadrone an even lighter sword. books.google.com/books?id=XgYHAAAAQAAJ&hl=enSchools and Masters of Fence: From the Middle Ages to the Eighteenth Century Egerton Castle Bell & Sons, 1885 My own take is that McBane is regarding the transition to a slim backsword blade, vs the European (and more flexible) spadrone. Cheers GC ps see also preceeding chapters, the one before regarding Hope and other thoughts of prize fighting, as well as the following pages going into Angelo and others........ Spadroon from the index pgs Spadroon, 207, 243, 247. German, 184. guard, 219.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 28, 2020 19:49:09 GMT
Whoever called the German Militärdegen, Haudegen or an Pallasch spadone, spadrone or spadroon, it weren't the Germans.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 20:06:28 GMT
Whoever called the German Militärdegen, Haudegen or an Pallasch spadone, spadrone or spadroon, it weren't the Germans. That is kind of my point but have you read the associated books from the bibliography presented by Castle? His text, referenced above, regards some of those 400 odd books going back to the 15th century. For instance, offer me the etymology for the words Militärdegen, Haudegen or Pallasch. Or for that matter the German equivalent for the word etymology. The original question was answered as not a spadroon and I will continue to point out the English etymology of the word. How did the Germans of the 18th century define a spadroon? There is an old internet acronym of PPOSTFU. I have offered some evidence, while you have posted none at all. Cheers GC
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Post by JonSchwertFechter on Feb 28, 2020 20:09:44 GMT
Pallasch- are almost always considered to be Primarily (or Exclusively 'Single-Edged') and straight- Bladed-- i.e. in more western terms a 'Back-sword'-- those majors distinctions seem to be overlooked here...unless im totally miss remembering something i shouldn't (or a similar situation here;) --( at least in the early era maybe as early as 16th- 17th and into 18th c. and again Im referencing here largely from the East-European Linguistic and cultural context here)ex. POlish, Hungarian, maybe Croatian and such).. but seeing as were looking at a clearly west- originating piece- I'm thinking more along the Lines of either Austrian(as has already been mentioned here) or even more Dano-Swedish. and it may not be an actual'to the detail'- pattern pice, although at ca. 1700 we are in the very early era for that kind of standarization as swords go as everyone here is well aware already).. so maybe the type nomenclature is still iffy at best..?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 28, 2020 20:15:54 GMT
A sword that the English call spadroon was called in German: "Militärdegen", "Offiziersdegen" or "Degen zu Hieb und Stoß". de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Blankwaffenfachbegriffe"Pallasch" is a heavier - often cavalry - version sometimes double edged, so it matches the term "backsword" or "broadsword". The "Haudegen" is a backsword. You quoted an English book and the author used English or Italian origin terms for German swords. Show me a German book with this terms and I'll admit to be wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 21:36:45 GMT
I'll accept your Wiki effort as at least something yet.............. Please read the pg 207 text once more and in the context of both the book and my entire post (ie: read the book). Also note Andi that we have had exactly the same exchange in a few other threads. I do believe the first time you replied to my suggesting spadrone as adapted from German usage of the word was from that text. Further that we both acquiesced that it was possibly/probably (which is exactly what Castle was relating) a use of an Italian word (See Hope, within the book and Angelo) used more widely used across Europe. Again, read the surrounding context (ie: read the book). You seem to not want to accept that the English word "spadroon" was likely from the term spadrone and that Italian terms were unheard of outside of Italy. Then that what most describe as a spadroon blade having German roots (single and double edged, as well as the more epee like (sic) blades with a short back edge. Frankly, the distraction regarding semantics and your defending an isolationist approach is kind of a waste of both our times. What's your take on George III and the British p1796 infantry officer sword and its origin? Why would they be regarded in England as a spadroon and not an offiziersdegen? Think about that. Why are we not looking at what the Danish labeled "What is the m1701 technically?" ......oh ok Danske offiserskårder No degen or spadrone or is it? I suppose I could go look that up, just as you could. Cheers GC
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 28, 2020 21:55:57 GMT
Kårde is the Danish term for Degen.
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