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Post by berntk on Feb 2, 2018 18:44:45 GMT
Hi all, I received this one today and I have a few questions that you gentlefolks perhaps will answer for me. This seems at first glance to be an ANXI blade, produced in 1813, repointed 1815-1816 and rehilted in an 1822 type hilt at some time later. The scabbard seems to be a standard 1816. Picture 3 doesn't show the entire thing, but I was unable to get a good picture of "Mfcture Imple". It's a heavy beast, at more that 1,5 kg. The scabbard doesn't have any markings except the tiny B on the mouth as shown. Was this an usual thing to do? This will be an easy fix as there's almost no rust, and Mother's Mag/ Autosol will do the blade. The poincons seem right for Bick and Lobstein; there are only 2 of them. The markings on the knuckleguard are unknown to me (I don't own l'Hoste or any other French sword books). Any input will be very much appreciated. Bernt K
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Post by berntk on Feb 2, 2018 18:55:02 GMT
Addendum, the peen. Seems a bit skewed to the left. Very little distal taper, 9mm at the washer, and down to 6mm 20cm back from the point. I managed to get a picture of the first of the spine engraving: Looks like at least 2 people tried their hand at this...
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Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 2, 2018 20:38:05 GMT
This pallasche makes me very uneasy. Too much sheet goin on with this. The ANXI has a flat guard plate and the bars end in balls leaning out. The 1816 guard face is dished and also has bars ending in balls flush to the plate. The guard here almost looks like an 1822CdL. That wouldn't help handling a damn.
Your measurements for the PoP are too heavy. Should be less than 5 mm. Width of the blade below the point is like 2ish mm.
There are Oct 1813 blades, but also note that all india repro blades are also marked Oct 1813. If the blade is too thick....
If you want a Napoleonic HC, I'd get my money back on this one, and look for something more reliable.
Nice pic. You look just like Jon Vickers ;)
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 2, 2018 21:02:15 GMT
The engraving on the spine looks a little too loose for french stuff as well, in addition to what Dave said. Compared a picture on the web and my own 1822 it's quite different. I would try for a refund asap. Compare this original To the Indian made Universal swords pallasch.
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Post by Pino on Feb 2, 2018 21:31:26 GMT
It was common practice at the time to recycle older 1803-1816 blades mounted on 1854 hilts but this one is a fake blade, the hilt looks legit but the blade is 100% not authentic.
More and more of these faked 1803-54 swords appear in the market/auctions and are made to fool people. Wasting actual real hilts even adds more to the insult I'd say...
Want to know how to quickly and easily spot fake French An XI blades? The 1813 is already a bad omen but can you see in the ''Du Klingenthal'' when the tail of the U meets with the K? That right there was never done on the real swords, once you see that you recognize the work of evil.
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Post by berntk on Feb 2, 2018 21:34:41 GMT
Dave, yep, looks like Jon Vickers in his Peter Grimes....
I did have a look at the Universal thing, and the grip is totally different. the Indians tried to copy the original ball ends, and my pommel is more... 1822-ish. I actually believe that my hilt is an old one, even if I can't identify what it is. The blade - I'm not so certain. The finish is much better than on the thing in KoAs catalogue, but the spine engraving...
Well, returning it is not an option, I bought it on a local auction site, rather cheaply.
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Post by Pino on Feb 2, 2018 21:34:49 GMT
Oh and I forgot the brown/orange color of the grip is also exclusive to the cuirassier repro, no real sword had this type of natural color.
If you can get a refund do so, unless you paid very little and prefer to keep it as an indicator/reference.
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Post by berntk on Feb 2, 2018 21:41:43 GMT
Hehe, thanks! As I said, not much money lost. As a fake, it's actually rather well done, and I wonder how the heck they made anything on it? The hilt alone...
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 2, 2018 21:49:16 GMT
Your hilt looks old but I feel very much that the blade may be from the universal, or at least the same forge. The stats on KoA (8mm to 4.9mm) sound like they could be within variance.
Absolutely no option for returning? That sucks.
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Post by berntk on Feb 2, 2018 23:30:58 GMT
Yes, the clumsiness when I first took it in hand is probably the prime reason why I asked. None of my other pointy/ stabby things feel like a piece of rebar . As you can see in my 2nd post, suspicion began to bloom... Nah, the seller never implied that it was a genuine old article, and I didn't think to ask, just liked the niiice pictures, so legally I don't have any reason for complaint. Morally, yes perhaps, but that counts for little nowadays. I'll let him know, though. I may even use some harsh language.
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Feb 3, 2018 0:51:12 GMT
If it handled better I'd offer you something for it.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 3, 2018 0:59:38 GMT
If you put down more than 300.00, you still got your pocket picked. (Been there done that. That's why a lot of antiques dealer routinely curse the repro market; they're just good enough to slip by the majority of dealers and casual buyers.) They should be properly stamped and marked with dates by the original manufacturers! Not plastic stickums like Windlass; hammered seals.
Sidebar: I am of the Jon Vickers generation and rever him as the finest heldentenor on record. That's funny as he was hired, out of the Canadian Royal Conservatory, to be the London Royal Opera House to become their House Verdi tenor, for which I have the premiere Don Carlos recording. Only heard him live three times. Peter Grimes, and two concerts. Unforgetable.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 3, 2018 1:41:16 GMT
the seller never implied that it was a genuine old article, and I didn't think to ask, just liked the niiice pictures, so legally I don't have any reason for complaint. Morally, yes perhaps, but that counts for little nowadays. I'll let him know, though. I may even use some harsh language. Man, I'd be a lot more upset than you about getting a fake lol. I expect dealers to mark if not genuine, Was it grouped with other antiques? Personally I'd dismount the blade and sell the hilt components seperately as they look original at least, then try to sell or give the blade away.
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Post by berntk on Feb 3, 2018 2:15:18 GMT
If you put down more than 300.00, you still got your pocket picked. (Been there done that. That's why a lot of antiques dealer routinely curse the repro market; they're just good enough to slip by the majority of dealers and casual buyers.) They should be properly stamped and marked with dates by the original manufacturers! Not plastic stickums like Windlass; hammered seals. Sidebar: I am of the Jon Vickers generation and rever him as the finest heldentenor on record. That's funny as he was hired, out of the Canadian Royal Conservatory, to be the London Royal Opera House to become their House Verdi tenor, for which I have the premiere Don Carlos recording. Only heard him live three times. Peter Grimes, and two concerts. Unforgetable. No, I didn't pay that much, not very much less though, but that's how it is. Jon Vickers, I never did get to hear him live; I don't know whether he ever performed in Norway, and I'm probably a few years too young to have gone if he did. I had a couple of recordings with him; a Florestan which I initially found... meh, and something else which I forget. He suddenly clicked in place in Karajan's Otello, Oh holy cow! I'm still flabbergasted and moved almost to tears by his sheer singing power and understanding of the role even when almost screaming. That, and his Grimes as recorded, are operatic summits as far as I'm concerned. Oh well.
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Post by berntk on Feb 3, 2018 2:21:58 GMT
the seller never implied that it was a genuine old article, and I didn't think to ask, just liked the niiice pictures, so legally I don't have any reason for complaint. Morally, yes perhaps, but that counts for little nowadays. I'll let him know, though. I may even use some harsh language. Man, I'd be a lot more upset than you about getting a fake lol. I expect dealers to mark if not genuine, Was it grouped with other antiques? Personally I'd dismount the blade and sell the hilt components seperately as they look original at least, then try to sell or give the blade away. Nah, he's a private guy, not a dealer. If he were a dealer, I have a few connections inside that business... and words would be exchanged. I would be mightily pissed!
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Post by likehotbutter on Feb 3, 2018 7:00:51 GMT
There is another similar one on ebay @ $700. Legitimate 1854 hilt, indian semprini blade (not sure if I'm allowed to post links?)
Outed it on the International Antique Sword Collectors Facebook group but am shocked to see even more on the market...
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Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 3, 2018 11:20:56 GMT
There is another similar one on ebay @ $700. Legitimate 1854 hilt, indian poo blade (not sure if I'm allowed to post links?) Outed it on the International Antique Sword Collectors Facebook group but am shocked to see even more on the market... You can link to something in example. Hard to continue a discussion without the evidence. There are several Russian dealers in the greater New York City area who routinely post on ebay. Half of what they put up is repro junk. Call them out and they (and ebay) ignore you.
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Post by likehotbutter on Feb 3, 2018 15:39:20 GMT
There is another similar one on ebay @ $700. Legitimate 1854 hilt, indian poo blade (not sure if I'm allowed to post links?) Outed it on the International Antique Sword Collectors Facebook group but am shocked to see even more on the market... You can link to something in example. Hard to continue a discussion without the evidence. There are several Russian dealers in the greater New York City area who routinely post on ebay. Half of what they put up is repro junk. Call them out and they (and ebay) ignore you. m.ebay.com/itm/EARLY-FRANCE-FRENCH-DATED-1813-HEAVY-CAVALRY-SWORD-WITH-SCABBARD-WELL-MARK-TU49/401449210023?_mwBanner=1Exact same case as OP. I had thought using an original hilt was uncommon but sad to see that it’s not as singular an example as I hoped for Caveat Emptor!
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Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 3, 2018 17:13:31 GMT
This is one of the sellers I was referring to. Note it is a NYC address. Conneticutt also. There are legit dealers and collectors in NYC, but there are lions and tigers and bears also.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 3, 2018 17:31:35 GMT
I've reported quite a few fake antique listings after messaging the seller and getting either hostility or no response... nothing ever comes of it. I'm convinced that as long as eBay gets its precious fees they don't give a damn either way.
Also yeah lots of fakes circling about now. Less from Thailand it seems though.
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