pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 3, 2019 18:25:02 GMT
I am sure TFW response was for marketing purposes. Skall has a large following with loyal fans for a lack of a better way of putting it. Unfortunately Skall is not always correct and can really get off base at times. In addition to the errors listed in a previous post he made one with the Buffalo Handle Sword Cane that I made a video to rebuff. I had another video on a review of something that I had done previous then he made one putting the product down. Shortly after his aired I began receiving comments but “Skall said…” as it was the gospel and I answered stating as to where he was wrong. Rarely do I watch him anymore. He gets a product that he is not familiar with, misuses it, and then gives a bad review. I’ve written him off.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 3, 2019 19:22:14 GMT
Skall used to be a cool guy. I'm pretty sure he was a member here years back, but can't remember when or why he left. His YouTube channel is huge, but he's definitely more "backyard cutter" than "sword expert" in his knowledge base.
I've seen a few of his videos that I disagree with, but I can concede that, in his market, his points are valid to himself and his base.
This sword...machete? Tool? Whatever you want to call it, was most likely never used for half the things he tested it on. But, he used it, and it broke, so it's bad. According to him, that is.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 3, 2019 19:31:25 GMT
If TFW has to make their panabas slab-tanged to keep it from snapping like dry twig under moderate stress, they should. That little nub of a tang on a two-handed weapon marketed as s fierce chopper? Come on. I highly doubt the antique ones were that fragile, but if they were they sucked and the design should be changed after all.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jun 3, 2019 21:12:58 GMT
Skall used to be a cool guy. I'm pretty sure he was a member here years back, but can't remember when or why he left. His YouTube channel is huge, but he's definitely more "backyard cutter" than "sword expert" in his knowledge base. I've seen a few of his videos that I disagree with, but I can concede that, in his market, his points are valid to himself and his base. This sword...machete? Tool? Whatever you want to call it, was most likely never used for half the things he tested it on. But, he used it, and it broke, so it's bad. According to him, that is. He was, actually I remember I think his last post which was a sale post, loading off a rapier and dynasty forge longsword. Rapier had a bad set and longsword was of course abused if my memory doesn't lie to me. Yeah, I used to like Skall as well. Winds blowing I guess.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jun 3, 2019 21:20:41 GMT
If TFW has to make their panabas slab-tanged to keep it from snapping like dry twig under moderate stress, they should. That little nub of a tang on a two-handed weapon marketed as s fierce chopper? Come on. I highly doubt the antique ones were that fragile, but if they were they sucked and the design should be changed after all. I think the quality of the wood had a lot to do with it, that and the design is not actually in the traditional shape. But yeah, a longer tang/better braces should have been there, but the slab tang is just overkill and I guarantee under normal working use for butchering or vegetation clearing, and not hacking into dead trees it would be fine without the slab. The marketing is crap but I really think this was a case of a design being misused and some poor quality wood.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 4, 2019 1:27:41 GMT
Better quality wood and metal bands around the top of the handle probably would have given it acceptable strength. A thinner full-length hidden tang like a euro sword would have given it sufficient strength for Skall's tests. Since they failed to do that, a full tang is the best possible solution. The only downside to it is a little extra weight in the handle.
Design being misused? We know swords aren't for chopping trees, but let me share some quotes from the TFW Panabas sale page:
"The Panabas is a chopping weapon"
"similar to the western battle axe"
"chopping through meat"
"favored for use in executions"
"clearing unusually dense vegetation"
"well engineered and durable"
"in combat this particular sword can cut anything it comes in contact with right in half!"
And it's obvious at first glance that the long handle is supposed to provide lots of leverage to the forward-curved kukri-like blade for heavy percussive cuts. I'd hope they'd err on the side of durability when designing it. I think it's reasonable for a purchaser to assume it can stand up to some chopping on live wood.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 18:48:53 GMT
Better quality wood and metal bands around the top of the handle probably would have given it acceptable strength. A thinner full-length hidden tang like a euro sword would have given it sufficient strength for Skall's tests. Since they failed to do that, a full tang is the best possible solution. The only downside to it is a little extra weight in the handle. Design being misused? We know swords aren't for chopping trees, but let me share some quotes from the TFW Panabas sale page: "The Panabas is a chopping weapon" "similar to the western battle axe" "chopping through meat" "favored for use in executions" "clearing unusually dense vegetation" "well engineered and durable" "in combat this particular sword can cut anything it comes in contact with right in half!" And it's obvious at first glance that the long handle is supposed to provide lots of leverage to the forward-curved kukri-like blade for heavy percussive cuts. I'd hope they'd err on the side of durability when designing it. I think it's reasonable for a purchaser to assume it can stand up to some chopping on live wood. TFW, I fear, has taken a page from the Cold Steel book on marketing. Some of these claims are pointless, i.e. all weapons are engineered, the sword is an obvious chopper and no one doubts it can cut vegetation. They definitely get carried away with their claims though, that much I concede. I would keep the sword design as is, but change how it sits in the hardwood. The fit has to be really tight and they need to minimize stress points. Skall caused them to go way overboard.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 4, 2019 21:57:01 GMT
And it's obvious at first glance that the long handle is supposed to provide lots of leverage to the forward-curved kukri-like blade for heavy percussive cuts. A real panabas, OTOH, doesn't have a forward curved blade. They have backward-curved blades. The ones with S-shaped blades of shape close to the TFW/BCI offerings do usually have a sharpened back edge, but the main cutting edge is the side that's the spine on these repros. Not kukri-like blades, and thus not likely to be intended for kukri-like chopping.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 22:34:41 GMT
The Night King wielded a panabas a few seasons ago.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 4, 2019 23:33:09 GMT
The Night King wielded a panabas a few seasons ago. I was really looking forward to him using it...
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Post by MOK on Jun 5, 2019 7:03:17 GMT
And it's obvious at first glance that the long handle is supposed to provide lots of leverage to the forward-curved kukri-like blade for heavy percussive cuts. A real panabas, OTOH, doesn't have a forward curved blade. They have backward-curved blades. The ones with S-shaped blades of shape close to the TFW/BCI offerings do usually have a sharpened back edge, but the main cutting edge is the side that's the spine on these repros. Not kukri-like blades, and thus not likely to be intended for kukri-like chopping. The handles also tend to either be straight or continue the curve of the blade. I can't recall ever seeing one with the TFW's S-shaped overall profile.
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Post by bebut on Jun 5, 2019 13:38:52 GMT
There is a trade off --sometimes--between traditional design and usability. Some traditional designs were winners and have passed the test of time, but others were weak. History is full of broken swords and the count is probably going up with urban modern hobbyists with little experience and money to burn.
Case in point, my Windlass Confederate bowie-- It is an interesting piece. if I were an 1860s soldier with no handgun i would have been glad to have it, but with its round handle and thin tang is is one of by bottom end "go to" pieces. A trade off between tradition and function. Maybe somebody will come up with a tactical version for users.
Ditto on Skall. Reminds me of Peter Kiyosaki who came up with a great book or 2 followed by repetitious duds.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 14:45:55 GMT
Upon further examination, I am quite certain TFW uses the exact same blade for both their Panabas and their Talibong swords. The talibong has a short handle so it stands to reason that since the blades are used for both, they don't bother to manufacture a longer and stouter tang for the Panabas.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 5, 2019 16:31:49 GMT
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 5, 2019 16:58:15 GMT
Upon further examination, I am quite certain TFW uses the exact same blade for both their Panabas and their Talibong swords. The talibong has a short handle so it stands to reason that since the blades are used for both, they don't bother to manufacture a longer and stouter tang for the Panabas. A lot of TFW's offerings sport very similar recurved blades, but the panabas is just different enough to them all to be as "unique" as they come. Granted, going by photos and specs as listed on their site, the only real difference between the panabas and Talibong is the former has a small groove at the base and is listed at 1/4" longer. Given reasonable variation, though, that's not really a difference. Also, the Talibong seems to have a sort of ricasso while the panabas jumps right into the edge. As for the BCI model, to me it's still very confused about what it's supposed to be. A little spikier than necessary, and an oddly abrupt curve...but closer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 17:21:49 GMT
I just had an email exchange with Ron Kosakowski of TFW and he agreed with me that Skall's tests were excessive. He attributed the breakage to a failure to inspect the blade for quality control prior to shipment. He elected to redesign the sword to make it less likely to break. He was explained that they DO intend to tweak the new design slightly within the next few weeks and the first batch may be available within a month or so. I appreciate that he acknowledged the mistake and that the design itself could be improved upon. So I suspect nothing nefarious at work here. I am eager to buy the new model when it drops.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 17:41:30 GMT
The Binaroy is gorgeous. Where do you suppose the edge is?
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 5, 2019 17:44:19 GMT
The Binaroy is gorgeous. Where do you suppose the edge is? It's hard to tell from the photos. Perhaps it is double edged.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jun 5, 2019 18:32:21 GMT
Looks single edged with the edge on the outside (point curves to rear).
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Post by Croccifixio on Jun 6, 2019 1:44:15 GMT
Lots of discussions here already. Just wanna add a few things about the native Panabas and TFW's model. The closest analog the TFW blade has in real life is what's called the Padsambulin Panabas (which has a bit of a recurve). Still, the blade is often much broader and resembles an axe more than a sword. In terms of construction, the tang is often longer than the original TFW blade, but not too long - the metal or rattan banding around the "guard" area compresses the native wood enough for a friction fit (and sometimes helped by sticky resin inside). It wasn't meant to be permanently constructed, really, but something you can expediently repair without much trouble. As for its use, there aren't a whole lot of documented ways to use it (even that "mopping up" thing isn't a sure thing, but I think Skall's trouble was twofold - ahistorical construction (the originals were really thin blades, with very thick bases - often beyond 11mm in thickness), and ahistorical use. Plus it doesn't help that the climate is so different and the wood the BCI/TFW forge uses isn't as high quality as those used in historical examples.
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