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Post by antoine99 on Jan 11, 2018 22:40:42 GMT
Hey everyone! I was just wondering how soldiers would brace themselves to receive a charge (against other humans). I doubt there would be much material on this but I was wondering what the Roman and Greek tactics were specifically? With the Romans, I assume it would involve anchoring your shield on the ground since it is so huge, but then what, do you use your shoulder to brace it, keeping your gladius behind the shield on the side or something? Would that potentially injure your shoulder? As for the Greeks, I'm wondering about the hoplon. It doesn't seem like that can be anchored like that. It seems like it would be much harder to brace than an anchored Roman scutum. Maybe there's more documentation about this in the medieval period, what's the most effective way? How resilient would these techniques be? What if you are charged by a deer or something and you use this technique (not to kill it, just to survive)? Thanks!
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Post by MOK on Jan 11, 2018 23:24:36 GMT
Nobody ever anchored their shields in the ground like that in close combat, that's an invention of modern fantasy fiction. All it would do in reality is to leave your head and upper body exposed and hinder your ability to push back.
Essentially you just take a well grounded stance, shift your balance forward and prepare to meet the oncoming enemy with your spear, ideally while deflecting his spear harmlessly upwards over your head with your shield rather than stopping it dead (because that would not only take much more force but also leave the enemy out of the reach of your spear).
Against charging cavalry (or large aggressive game) you can plant the butt of your spear or pike in the ground behind you, and possibly step on it with your back foot, so that all you're really doing is holding the business end up and pointed at the attacker, which pits their weight and momentum against the durability of your spear haft and the solidity of the ground rather than against your own relatively pitiful strength.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 11, 2018 23:25:32 GMT
I was just wondering how soldiers would brace themselves to receive a charge (against other humans). I doubt there would be much material on this but I was wondering what the Roman and Greek tactics were specifically? From art, Roman soldiers use a forward-weighted stance with shield up (to protect the upper body and lower face): (don't know whether this particular sculpture is a copy, but this stance appears in contemporary sculpture). Especially against cavalry, it's useful to present a forest of spearpoints to discourage them from actually making contact, since forward-weight stance or not, a horse will knock you flat. This was Roman practice, too, as recommended in Arrian's "Array against the Alans", members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/Ancient_Warfare/Rome/Sources/ektaxis.htmlA forest of spearpoints will discourage pedestrian humans, too. In early modern drill manuals (e.g, Jacob de Gheyn, "Wapenhandelingh", 1607), we find the pike butt is sometimes grounded to brace against horse:
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Post by antoine99 on Jan 12, 2018 0:40:47 GMT
Wow, great info there thanks guys, makes sense!
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 12, 2018 1:49:46 GMT
Keep in mind, too, that charges were generally not intended to plow *into* opposing soldiers but rather push near them and sweep past to give point or slash at high speed, over and over again until the line breaks and the horsemen can have their choice of targets. A pike wall prevents them from closing measure. The individual soldiers do not have to be strong enough to physically stop a horse pile-driving into the points.
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Post by antoine99 on Jan 12, 2018 4:08:22 GMT
Keep in mind, too, that charges were generally not intended to plow *into* opposing soldiers but rather push near them and sweep past to give point or slash at high speed, over and over again until the line breaks and the horsemen can have their choice of targets. A pike wall prevents them from closing measure. The individual soldiers do not have to be strong enough to physically stop a horse pile-driving into the points. Yes, against horses I understand. But what if (this might sound pretty stupid) you are being charged by a wild animal, such as a deer? I'm sure it happened where an individual soldier on leave or something in the countryside was charged by something, I hear boars are especially dangerous. Would you still do it as described above, the same as against a human opponent? Or would you anchor your shield in the ground and sink lower behind it and brace it hoping to daze the target and have it run off? Let's imagine for this scenario that you only have your shield, and no weapon. What would be the best position for maximum resistance, but also to avoid injuring yourself from the impact?
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Post by MOK on Jan 12, 2018 6:24:29 GMT
Shields were simply not used for hunting (or most other civilian activities, for that matter), since their primary purpose in warfare was to provide portable cover against arrows and other projectiles, they were kind of a pain to lug around and the animals didn't shoot at you. Some people might have worn a buckler while hunting, just as a general EDC thing, but it would not have been of any use at all against a charging boar or other angry beast. And "anchoring" a large shield in the ground like that would do you no good, either, the animal would just bowl you over regardless - there's pretty much no way for your puny human frame to provide enough force to bodycheck a large charging animal, let alone "daze" it. The best position in that situation would be up a tree. PS. Actually, on further thought I think I have seen some paintings of bodyguards accompanying hunting troupes carrying shields. But they would not be taking active part in the hunt itself, the shields are meant for use against human attackers, and if attacked by the game their best bet would be to just drop the shields and get the hell out of the way.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 12, 2018 13:29:51 GMT
Might scale a tree. I know, easier said than done. In all seriousness, and I don’t know if this is what you are looking for, but personally with an attacking dog I’ve offered point. I never stuck one but I offered point with umbrella, and sword (from a cane). At times we danced a bit but they never figured how to get pass the point. Would hate to try this with something the size of a charging boar but in that case a spear would be the tool and plant the butt, and that would be iffy.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 12, 2018 18:10:23 GMT
Keep in mind, too, that charges were generally not intended to plow *into* opposing soldiers but rather push near them and sweep past to give point or slash at high speed, over and over again until the line breaks and the horsemen can have their choice of targets. A pike wall prevents them from closing measure. The individual soldiers do not have to be strong enough to physically stop a horse pile-driving into the points. Yes, against horses I understand. But what if (this might sound pretty stupid) you are being charged by a wild animal, such as a deer? I'm sure it happened where an individual soldier on leave or something in the countryside was charged by something, I hear boars are especially dangerous. Would you still do it as described above, the same as against a human opponent? Or would you anchor your shield in the ground and sink lower behind it and brace it hoping to daze the target and have it run off? Let's imagine for this scenario that you only have your shield, and no weapon. What would be the best position for maximum resistance, but also to avoid injuring yourself from the impact? This is something I have first-hand experience with, having been charged by moose many times. The LAST thing you want to do is stand your ground and try to poke at the beast. Instead, move at a right angle to it and get behind something. For example, I was once walking about Turnagain Arm and two dogs came leaping out of the underbrush followed by a very angry bull with his tines down, waggling them. The dogs ran off and Mr. Angry Moose was staring at me, then started charging. I ran, looked over my shoulder to see the tines and made the wise decision to veer off the trail at a right angle into underbrush. It was devil's club, and I was wearing shorts. But still I escaped the antlers. I don't think any spear would have made much difference. There's so much sheer force in the charge you're going to get clobbered even if you've fatally injured the beast. Speaking of which, if you want an improvised weapon, devil's club is a pretty great choice. The thorns are like glass shards.
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Post by antoine99 on Jan 12, 2018 20:10:03 GMT
Alright, I guess I underestimated the force involved in a charge. About the dogs, yes I've heard that umbrella technique works, I think you are supposed to open it or something to scare it off also though? Not to discredit the pointy end A moose would scare the Hell out of me though! I'd just give it my wallet and walk away.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jan 12, 2018 21:22:58 GMT
Moose are great. They're usually quite calm. My funniest interaction with one was on a trail fairly deep into the outer Chugach years ago. I was hiking along and saw some good size brown bear tracks in the mud made within the past day or two. I was alone and said aloud "wow that must have been a big bear!" I then heard something to my right and looked over to see a HUGE bull moose, full rack, chewing on some leaves. The sucker was so well concealed and I was so fixated on the tracks that I didn't notice him. He looked at me and the tracks as if to say "meh, I've seen bigger." Like most big plant eaters, their charges are a means of scaring you off. As long as you yield they're satisfied. I guess hippos are an exception but I've never been to Africa.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 13, 2018 1:56:57 GMT
About the dogs, yes I've heard that umbrella technique works, I think you are supposed to open it or something to scare it off also though? Not to discredit the pointy end Opening and closing an umbrella works well with dogs. I might say super well especially when advancing. I’ve used the technique on several occasions. The time I was talking about above was when visiting a friend and somehow we got separated. I was entering his rear door when his dog charged from the garage. I remember his wife being present nearby in the yard and the expression on her face. The dog was aggressive dog and had bitten several people. I was on the top step and had the height advantage. I was carrying my sword umbrella but never drew the blade. Partly out of respect for my friend, and the wife was watching. And then I found that it wasn’t necessary. After a several unsuccessful attempts to get around the tip he gave up and went back into the garage. His wife calmed in short order when she saw that it was a standoff and neither of us was getting hurt.
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Post by MOK on Jan 13, 2018 9:12:18 GMT
If you want to „stand your ground“, form a wedge with the outstretched arms and/or shield and aim at one of the rushing opponent’s outer corners. This is likely to let them loose their balance. Then you can take the back. At least it’s a good way to take out some force of their initial attack. ...Might - not - work on moose or dogs. Yeah, that'll work on a person just flat out running at you (for whatever reason), but the moose is so much bigger and stronger than you that it simply doesn't give a damn, and dogs or wolves or similar predators will try to go around the shield rather than charge blindly straight at it. Of course, if you can keep the shield between you and them that can still work out for you, at least for a moment... Opening and closing an umbrella works well with dogs. I might say super well especially when advancing. I’ve used the technique on several occasions. The time I was talking about above was when visiting a friend and somehow we got separated. I was entering his rear door when his dog charged from the garage. I remember his wife being present nearby in the yard and the expression on her face. The dog was aggressive dog and had bitten several people. I was on the top step and had the height advantage. I was carrying my sword umbrella but never drew the blade. Partly out of respect for my friend, and the wife was watching. And then I found that it wasn’t necessary. After a several unsuccessful attempts to get around the tip he gave up and went back into the garage. His wife calmed in short order when she saw that it was a standoff and neither of us was getting hurt. I think it's the same thing as with horses - they're generally just smart enough not to run into plainly visible things like umbrellas or pike hedges.
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Post by antoine99 on Jan 13, 2018 23:43:16 GMT
If you want to „stand your ground“, form a wedge with the outstretched arms and/or shield and aim at one of the rushing opponent’s outer corners. This is likely to let them loose their balance. Then you can take the back. At least it’s a good way to take out some force of their initial attack. ...Might - not - work on moose or dogs. Yeah, that'll work on a person just flat out running at you (for whatever reason), but the moose is so much bigger and stronger than you that it simply doesn't give a damn, and dogs or wolves or similar predators will try to go around the shield rather than charge blindly straight at it. Of course, if you can keep the shield between you and them that can still work out for you, at least for a moment... Opening and closing an umbrella works well with dogs. I might say super well especially when advancing. I’ve used the technique on several occasions. The time I was talking about above was when visiting a friend and somehow we got separated. I was entering his rear door when his dog charged from the garage. I remember his wife being present nearby in the yard and the expression on her face. The dog was aggressive dog and had bitten several people. I was on the top step and had the height advantage. I was carrying my sword umbrella but never drew the blade. Partly out of respect for my friend, and the wife was watching. And then I found that it wasn’t necessary. After a several unsuccessful attempts to get around the tip he gave up and went back into the garage. His wife calmed in short order when she saw that it was a standoff and neither of us was getting hurt. I think it's the same thing as with horses - they're generally just smart enough not to run into plainly visible things like umbrellas or pike hedges. Haha, yeah. I mostly was just thinking about like a smaller deer or similar sized animal or something, not really a moose. I have no experience being attacked by wild animals of course so I guess I underestimated their intelligence too. Also elephants. That encounter with the dog you describe was such a gentlemanly fight, sounds like something out of the Kingsmen
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